Ep 33 - A Black Man's Perspective of Our Current Racial Tensions with André Brown
We need to continue to talk about racial healing and keep asking questions like, why we are here today, what we can be doing to move towards equality, and how do we heal the deep wounds and pain that we've caused one another?
We invite André Brown of racialjustus.com into The Third Place to talk through this hard topic, what his emotions were last year when he heard the horrific news of George Floyd's and Brianna Taylor's murders, and his guidance on how our society can begin to heal and move forward.
LISTEN ON:
TRANSCRIPT:
David: One of the most uncomfortable conversations that we know that we had to have as a society, in this last year were to identify issues of systemic racism. We saw the news of Brianna Taylor murdered in her own home in her own bed, a year ago. We saw what happened with George Floyd. We saw the riots. And, this is an important conversation. And we don't know how to have it. So looking forward to this conversation isn't exactly the right way to say it but this is a conversation that has guided us as we've defined what the third place is. As we've recognized, hey, we need to figure this out, we need to figure out how to live together, we need to figure out how to honor each other. We need to figure out how to love each other. So I'm just so excited to bring Andre Brown to the conversation today around racism.
Andre is an expert facilitator well versed in creating an atmosphere of respectful conversations around challenging topics including race. For nearly 30 years, Andre has assisted a diverse population improve their lives, and most recently as a clinical training specialist for the Rhode Island Department of Children, Youth, and Families. It was here that he developed trainings that included cultural competence and child welfare through self-awareness, and the impact of implicit bias. Today, Andre created Racial Just Us, a division of Jump Street Coaching as a way to create actionable meaningful racial change, combined with his experience as a trainer, and international Coaching Federation certified coach.
I hope you really listen in to this conversation. We all come to it from so many different places. It's important to keep in mind, I think the conversation we had last week on Maslow's hierarchy of needs that, you know, we all are meeting our needs in different ways, and we have certain needs met and certain needs that are not being met. And, being aware of that will help us to better engage with this hard conversation. But Andre comes with an open heart and an open hand and was a great guide as we really work through some things that we can all be doing to better the tension that we are all feeling in our country. So thank you for joining in. This kind of conversation is what the third place is all about.
[Intro-music]
Mary: We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David: It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering, and engaging dialogue.
Mary: You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self, equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David: Thank you for listening.
Mary: We invite you in to the third place.
David: Well, I'm excited to introduce Andre to everybody. Andre and I are new friends and we met through actually we met through a podcast. So both of us listen to a podcast or at least listen to an episode of a podcast called the Rod Cast. So it's a podcast by Rob Bell. And one of Rob Bell's guests in November was Don golden and Don Golden is someone who does a lot of work in the social entrepreneurship space. And he was pretty bold and threw out there just to say, “Hey, if you're a social entrepreneur, or you feel just the need to connect, here's my email.” And he threw it out in the podcast world. So, both Andre and I took him up on that offer. And we chatted and became friends with Don. And then Don through that experience created kind of this whole group of people. And then that's when I got to meet. Andre was through this just group of amazing individuals. And heard so much about Andre's work with coaching, Andre’s experiences with racism, and working on systemic racial issues. And very much immediately was like, a sidebar with Andre like, “Hey, man, I got this podcast and you need to tell your story.” So graciously, Andre accepted and I think I'm really so excited to bring you into our world and to share your uncomfortable stories of race and really go there. So Andre, can you just maybe let's just start at the beginning, tell us a little bit about your story where you grew up. I know that you grew up in a military family. And how did those experiences shape your perspectives around racism as a Black man growing up?
Andre: Sure. Well David and Mary, thank you for having me on the podcast. And I appreciate the opportunity to be able to speak on these issues. So, I'm excited about that. When it comes to my background, my family is from North Carolina, my father was a Vietnam vet. And, basically, when you grow up in the military or part of a military family, what typically happens is you live in housing that's geared towards military, or military personnel, that kind of group together, you name it. And so one of the great things about it was that exposed me to a lot of different people. I feel like it was a rich experience that I'm thankful for that I had.
Mary: So I'm wondering how much Black representation was in the military or in your home base at that time?
Andre: Sure. Sure. Well, that's an interesting question. Because I know like, during my childhood, there were always Black families in the military, Black people, you know, Brown people, people who were from different backgrounds, kind of gravitated to the military, because it gave them opportunities that they might not necessarily have. One of the great things about the military is that it gives you more opportunity, opportunity for school, that type of thing. So, in terms of the diversity, it was a very diverse situation.
David: Yeah. So I would imagine all of those experiences shaped to where you're at today. And really, even the questions I want to start to lean into are where we're at today as a country, from your perspective, in terms of systemic racism. Like, last year was I think, for many, well, for me, I can best speak to my experience. Last year was a good wake-up call for the majority of White Americans. And you know, George Floyd's murder, for example, or Briana Taylor. George Floyd was not the first Black man to be murdered at the hands of the police. Yet, it's almost like because everyone's just so trapped to be able to do anything COVID forced us to watch it. You know, and COVID forced us to be aware that this is an issue. And what did that feel like when you first heard the news of George Floyd's murder do you remember the moment?
Andre: Well, the thing about George Floyd, the interesting thing about it was that you know, earlier in the year, we had the situation with Ahmaud Arbery, in that horrible situation. And then, of course, Briana Taylor. And so by this time, by the time that George Floyd was killed, I had so many different emotions. Like, first off, I was like, demoralized. I was so sad, you know, because it was just like, these things, these incidents are one after another. It just didn't seem to stop. And so, that in itself was very frustrating.
I was also angry because with these types of situations going on, it's just like what is it going to take for this country to change how we do business? Like, what is it going to take? You know, like, I found it to be very maddening. And so, when I saw that George Floyd thing, I saw a picture in the paper. And I remember seeing okay, this, you know, that was disturbing. But then, to actually see the video it was just heartbreaking.
Mary: I was just going ask if you watched it, and do you think it's important to watch it?
Andre: Absolutely. And that's the thing. I think about situations like this is that it's easy to say, Oh, yeah, well, this cop was restraining this guy and he choked him to death. All right, if you leave it like that, it's easy to say, okay, this is unfortunately what happened. But it's not until you see it, that you see the reality of the situation and it brings it home, even more. It makes it clearer.
Mary: It's not just words on a page or another number on the dial. It's re-humanizing. I think a lot of what we keep talking about is sort of re-humanizing. And like I think of him… It's even hard to, say it out loud. I feel so emotional talking about it I think of him yelling for his mom. And I think that that moment was part of one of the most moving, re-humanizing, and horribly traumatizing things to witness as well.
Andre: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a big part of the problem that we have is that there's a lot of people who are very willing to dehumanize people and keep them that way. It makes it easier to allow for their way of thinking and their thought process to continue in that way. And that's the tragedy is that one of the biggest things that we could do is to realize that we're all people. And that is the crazy thing is that people don't want to believe that this person is the person in that they may have the same type of feelings that you do or they might have the same types of beliefs. They're not necessarily raised in the same environment, or have the same privileges.
Mary: Or the same levels of melanin. I mean, we're talking about levels of melanin, you know?
Andre: Exactly.
Mary: How silly is it when you put it in that way? I mean, I remember when I heard that. I don't know if it was over the course of last year before that, but just that, how ridiculous is it when you really boil it down to just basic biology?
David: And I even currently realizing how easy it is for white people to dehumanize. And this is going to be something extremely subtle, but I noticed within my own language, I think all of last year, I kept referring to George Floyd's death, George Floyd's death, and only recently have I changed it to know he was murdered.
Andre: He was murdered.
David: It's George Floyd's murder. And that even though that subtle, I think that that's a version of dehumanization because he didn't just die, he was murdered by the hands of a White man. And so that's to me where I am in doing my best to be an advocate and doing my best to become anti-racist. But I'm telling you, like, I changed my words, maybe just a month ago, that's where I'm still seeing it within myself. And that's why it's got to be a proactive version of work versus a reactive version of work. I would really love your thoughts of just like this transition of the words from not racist to anti-racist because to me, that's a very clear example of the difference between the two words,
Mary: Right. Like, what does not racist behavior look like compared to anti-racist behavior?
Andre: Right. The whole approach in terms of anti-racist, as opposed to non-racist, is nuance, it's a nuance for me as well. So I think the biggest thing, obviously, is that when I was growing up when I had situations or circumstances where I was talking to somebody about race, I would always have people saying, oh, I'm not racist, like, I'm not racist, I have a Black friend, whatever. You know, that's always been one of those things, not racist is better than being racist, obviously. The issue is that we have these systemic problems in this country that are keeping people of color from being able to be as successful as they should be, and as they can be. And so, that shift in language is important in that it's not enough to just not be racist. We need to be actively taking action to eliminate racism. There are some ways that we can do that, that are going to help people start to move in that direction in terms of taking active steps. It’s just not enough to just say, Hey, I'm not a racist, we have to speak up. We have to learn.
David: To me, I think the visual that I cling to when I'm hearing this anti-racist, versus I'm not racist, is probably a video, or an exercise that many people have seen. And if you haven't, we'll link one from YouTube. But just this idea that we all start at these different starting points, and all these just beautiful questions of, you know, did you have divorced parents? You know, do you know, what it's like to skip a meal because you didn't have food available? And all these things, and all the videos that I've seen, that have played that out, you have a whole bunch of people that are different starting points in the line. And most people that are close to the end of the line at that moment are White people, right or white middle-class people.
But to me that I'm not racist is the person the race hasn't started yet, for this visual, but the statement, I'm not racist comes from the person who's 10 steps ahead before the race begins, right? And so I think that the anti-racist, at least for me, the way I'm visualizing it, the anti-racist is the person that's like, whoa, it's not that you're moving yourself back to the beginning where everybody else is still standing. But to be truly anti-racist is to work really hard to make sure that those below you get to start at the same starting point that you do. And so it's just much more active.
Mary: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I listened to Matthew McConaughey, ‘Green Lights’ book recently and he said something at the end is one of his major takeaways and to me, I feel like I'm going to say something that's really basic, but then sort of a change of language, but that it's all lives can't matter before Black Lives Matter way more. And also just even I like to want to change personally. I don't even like the word matter. I feel like that's even so beneath what a human should be measured as. It's like, it's not about mattering. It's about being loved, accepted and celebrated and embraced and encouraged, and motivated. Like, it's so much more than just mattering. I mean, think about how we feel about our children. It's not like do they matter to us? It's like, there is an unconditional acceptance and love, and support.
David: Yeah, I love that point.
Andre: Absolutely. I think people who are educated and I'm talking about people who have professional degrees, who are well educated, they have doctorates, master’s, you name it, you know, if they have been to school and done something to a large degree, you would think that those people would have a better understanding of what is happening in terms of disadvantage, and inequity in those types of issues. But it doesn't. You know, when you're talking about systemic racism, it goes across all of these lines, all of these major areas in our lives that we kind of interact in, whether it's education, housing, law, criminal law, all of these different areas that are set out that we have to be a part of economics, banking, those types of things. And, the thing that I go back to is that they were talking about students who were becoming medical doctors. And, there was a large percentage of those students who thought that people of color Black people had thicker skin, physically thicker skin than other people. And so you have these people who are supposed to be educated, that are just as clueless as everybody else when it comes to racism. You know, it's just because you have an education doesn't necessarily mean that you know, what's going on, that you have a good understanding of the difference in people.
Mary: Yeah, it does make sense, because I think that that really is such a testament to the shift from not racist to anti-racist, right? because being raised in or brought up in a privileged setting, being able to receive education, it's easy to not even take note of systemic racism, because unless you're bringing attention to it in an anti-racist way, and it's sort of built into the education system and platform, it otherwise is quite subtle stuff that just is a part of life. Some of the things that I've learned in the last year, I didn't even take note of because I feel like it's the responsibility of the community that you're raising, privileged or otherwise, to highlight these things. And, that's sort of the action to shifting into anti-racist is not only highlighting it, but then also saying, here's a way to combat or fight against it, and to encourage the minority or the underrepresented.
David: Yeah. To me, it's not even a surprise to hear that those that are educated would be completely unaware. I almost feel the opposite, where if you're educated, it's likely then that you have these points of privilege, and therefore are not paying attention. You don't need to pay attention to all these subtle versions of what are racist. So you're almost more predisposed to being a little bit racist without even being aware of it.
Mary: Right. I was just going to say could feel how that would be frustrating and shocking, though, for you, Andre, because you're like, wait, education doesn't even get you to the point of understanding something that's so clear and tangible for myself, right? It's like, well, then what? Then where's the hope? Because that's a shock to the system feels somewhat hopelessness, but it's like education has nothing to do with it.
Andre: That’s correct. That's true.
David: So with that all being said, what are the first things that we need to do? Like it sounds like something around awareness? How do we start the journey of becoming actively aware of all of these small subtleties that are, in fact racist?
Andre: Well, I think the first thing is the fact that we have to recognize that we can do something it doesn't matter that I might not necessarily eliminate racism by myself. But I can take steps that are going to make it easier or that are going to help move us in the right direction. So that's the first thing to realize. The other thing to realize is that this shift is hard. You know, when you're talking about moving from a non-racist to an anti-racist viewpoint, it's going to require effort, but we have to take those steps. And I'm not saying that everyone has to go out there and, you know, go to City Hall and say, hey, listen and hold up a sign and do those types of things. We don't necessarily have to go to that extent. But what we need to do is we need to first educate ourselves, you know, like, you can start slowly.
And what I mean by that is, you find information, whether it's podcasts, whether it's books, there's a lot of different things that we can do, and that are going to help us to move forward in terms of understanding, these are the things that we need to do. A big part of the problem is that people don't know they don't have the information. And if they start to bring in the information, and if they start to absorb information, you're going to realize how much you don't know. By doing that that's a big way to learn about what is happening to people.
Because, for example, and I have a number of different things, there's a podcast that I listened to on a weekly basis, and it's called Pod Save the People. Sometimes it's heartbreaking to listen to it. But it is one of the greatest podcasts in terms of getting across information, and how it affects people of color, and how people of color are negatively affected in all of these different areas, whether it's education, politics, and income, housing, all of that stuff. So if we do that, and we start to speak up, and we get into situations where someone says something to us, and we're like, that seems kind of dicey. you know, by standing up and saying, “Hey, listen, that's not true.” You know, those are those situations, especially where we can be anti-racist. If we just let it slide, that's a different scenario.
Mary: I love that. I think that something that's also been a strong message in my journey over the last year, to being anti-racist, is that it's taking the personal initiative to educate yourself, right? It's not relying on your friend of color to do that. And that is that being the first step, then it gives you more of that intuitive reaction to things that you feel are not kosher so that you can speak out. And I think even more importantly, not more importantly, equally as important is asking, like why someone thought or said something to sort of challenge a way of thinking. Because I think I found it to be more productive to not just simply combat something, but to question it, and then it becomes conversational, and a little bit more productive. So it doesn't put that person on the defense.
And it really has also helped me with raising my three-year-old boy, you know, when he says certain things. I think I shared a story with both of you at one point, but my son was watching a show when he said, “I don't like that girl's hair.” And I was alarmed and I was frustrated because it was this cartoon character that was a little Black girl that clearly had different hair than the rest of the other kids on the show. And I asked him because I had learned to sort of lean in with a question. I said, “Why don't you like her hair?” And it ended up being that he didn't like the bow in her hair. And so that was a breath of fresh air. And it gave me a moment of whatever. But that pause allowed me to have a conversation and to see what inputs he was getting to making that claim or making that statement. And that's been really helpful for me in the last year is coming from that curious place and asking you with a question when I feel something is alarming and potentially racist.
Andre: Yeah, that's really what it comes down to. There was a video, and I think it was on YouTube, where there was a young girl, she was probably about 14, 15 years old. And essentially, she got into a situation an argument with her parents. And so basically, her parents were telling her oh, well, you know, they were talking about somebody in the neighborhood or talking about a group of people. And this group of people were Black, happened to be Black. And, you know, the parents were basically saying, well, you know, they're lazy. They’re not doing anything of value. They don't want a job. They don't want to do XYZ. And she really stood up and provided some really good information to her parents. And, the two of them basically backed off because of how she presented her argument and not to say that they’re clear up all of these anti-racist feelings, but the fact that she stood up to her parents was a really powerful, powerful situation.
And so it’s really about taking the steps in the way that we can, in order to fight racism, directly using our words, using our actions. And if we do that, you know, like, we don't have to be superhuman. It can just be a small gesture, you know, something that is going to get people to, to really get them to think and not just kind of have whatever their mindset or their beliefs just kind of wash over us.
David: Yeah. And I want to get to your work about Racial Just Us. But a moment ago, you said, you know, this is just really, really hard. And I think one of the things that has helped me, as a White male, also start to get to explore, and this idea of becoming an anti-racist, is that I had safe Black friends you know Brown and Black friends that gave me grace too. They also recognize that this is hard work. And that they saw that I was trying, and they saw me put my foot in my mouth. And they forgave me, and they helped me take it out, you know? And there's an awareness that I have, that I'm still going to probably put my foot in my mouth again, right. But that's part of the work. It's hard, but I'm wanting to learn, and those that are around me you know, I've earned their trust. And they know that my intention is to love them, and to see them as human and to help with the human. So, there's this grace that's given to and I really think that that has been very helpful in accelerating my path towards becoming anti-racist. So I know that your work with Racial Just Us touches on that. But can you unpack that work? Yeah. What are you up to? How can people find you? How do we engage with those kinds of conversations through your platform?
Andre: Sure, absolutely. Basically, Racial Just Us was a program that I developed following the George Floyd murder. And essentially, what it is, is I wanted to give people the opportunity to take action against racism. And so, all of us have some skills interests that we can use as productive pieces. And so basically, what I did was I created a five-session series, it's group or individual related, but I bring people together and we talk about these issues. You know, we talk about racism. We talk about implicit bias. We talk about White privilege. And I have them go through this process where they identify things that they want to do the things that they do well. And if they are interested in getting involved in the community, I help them create a plan to do something in the community, whether it's volunteering, or getting actively involved in some other way. But in addition to that, they're also able to just learn for themselves and gain a better understanding of what it takes to become an anti-racist.
So, providing some insight into areas that they want to work on, give people resources that type of thing. And at this point, I'm basically offering that training once a month, and over a four-week period, the group comes together and talks about different things that they might have, you know, might be struggling with, we have conversations around that. And when I've run it, it's really been effective. And I think it really helps people to feel more confident about themselves in terms of being anti-racist and being able to take on these types of topics.
Mary: I love that. I think that it just speaks to the essence of Racial Just Us is an extension of what you offer. And that's basically a third place. It's a safe place for people to have this dialogue and in a productive imperfect way. And that it also just speaks to the power of collective that doing it with others I feel like helps to integrate it more. Like I think it's like if we're just sitting here reading by ourselves listening to a podcast by ourselves and questioning things in sort of a one-off way it doesn't integrate or assimilate as quickly as it does when it's in this collective setting.
Andre: Absolutely, absolutely. It’s a great point. And like anything, you know, say you're trying to get in shape and you're trying to you're trying some type of new exercise. You know, those first few days weeks, you know, you would end up doing it you’re shaky, you're sore, you're tired, it doesn't feel good you know? But as you continue to do it, you get stronger at it. And so, you know, like, just going back to what you were saying, David, you know, in terms of those friends that you had those allies that are willing to accept you and accept your questions and, and those types of things, people will generally understand and support you, like in this type of situation. So if you want to be an ally to somebody, like a person of color, and you say some something stupid, or say something that's ill-informed, but come at it with an open and understanding and willingness to learn, people will forgive you, and they will help you learn about it and, and move on from there. So it's really about having the bravery. And I should say, I think that's the biggest thing is having the willingness and the bravery, to be able to move forward. And to realize that, hey, this is wrong, you know, having people live inequitable situations is wrong. What can I do to change that? And if you're willing to do that, that means a lot.
David: Well, and that, you know, I mean, you're just embodying all of that with the work of Racial Just Us so I really do appreciate that. And I appreciate that space that you're creating. And I know that people feel that it is a safe place that they can come to, to ask these questions. So like you said, this work is really hard. And we all if we all do something, though, we can achieve it. So, I think that what you've done with this platform is just so incredible. And it's so beautiful. So thank you so much.
Andre: Thank you. Thank you. And I'll just say that if anyone is interested in in our work at Racial Just Us they can go to my website it’s Racial Just Us, R-A-C-I-A-L J-U-S-T-U-S.com. And then you can register on the program tab. Like I said, I usually run it once every month at this point.
Mary: beautiful. And just thank you again for coming on to the podcast and for sharing your firsthand experience and how that's evolved into the work that you do now.
David: Well, thank you. Thanks again for having me.
Mary: Be well.
Considering today's episode about our friend's experiences as a Black man after the murders of Briana Taylor and George Floyd, we want to make sure you know about another amazing podcast that regularly goes there with conversations about dismantling systemic racism. It's called ‘Dear White Women, with Sarah and Misasha. They're both half white half Japanese Daughters of immigrants who met when they were undergrads at Harvard 25 years ago. Misasha is a lawyer and amateur historian. Sarah is a life coach and facilitator. And together they bring all sorts of perspectives to the conversation.
Starting from the fears that Misasha has for her own Black husband and Black sons. They lean into our collective humanity and the firm belief that none of us will be safe until we are all safe and supported. And always look to welcome more people into understanding ourselves and our systems so that we can be more intentionally anti-racist in our daily lives. Check out their show. We think it's a great way to further your understanding and deepen your own conversations around race in America. We are admittedly super fans here at the Third Place Podcast and know that you will not be disappointed. You can also find them on Instagram at Dear White Women Podcast, on Twitter at DWW podcast, or on their website, DearWhiteWomen.com. Check them out.
