Ep 32 - How Understanding Maslow's Hierarchy and Basic Needs Help Us with Hard Conversations - Dr Liz Przybylinski
Part of what is necessary for creating the safety needed to discuss hard topics is first ensuring that our basic needs are met. The ability to engage in difficult conversations is a sign privilege. If you’re hungry and worried about where your next meal will come from for you and your family, then you simply do not have the capacity to think about greater issues. You just need food. So, what are our basic needs? How can we do the work of first helping meet those needs before we try to engage in dialogue?
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TRANSCRIPT:
David: The third place is about creating this space to have these really hard conversations. And, part of what's necessary and why we wanted to have this conversation with you was this realization that in order to have conversations around difficult topics, the first step is to create safety. And, part of the steps of creating safety is to make sure that everyone that's coming to the table to have the hard conversation has their basic needs met. You know, the ability to have a difficult conversation, quite frankly, is a sign of privilege. If you're hungry, and you're worried about where your next meal is going to come from for you or your family, then you simply don't have the capacity to think about race and gender issues. You just need food. So, you know, what are the basics means that each of us have, how can we do the work of helping people meet needs so that we can have the dialogue?
[Intro music]
Mary: We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David: It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering, and engaging dialogue.
Mary: You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self, equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David: Thank you for listening.
Mary: We invite you in to the third place.
David: Dr. Liz as she is affectionately called by friends and colleagues alike, is a social psychologist specializing in how past relationships unconsciously influence or reemerge in present relationships for better or for worse. Born and raised at the Jersey Shore, she moved to New York City to study psychology and philosophy at Barnard College, and research clinical epidemiology at the NYS Psychiatric Institute. She received her Ph.D. in social psychology at NYU and has since been teaching a variety of courses on social and emotional development, cognition, and social behavior at the University of Pennsylvania, Brooklyn College, and NYU.
Dr. Liz is currently a clinical assistant professor and program coordinator in the NYU psychology master's program, where she teaches research, statistics, and social behavior, all while working to keep the day-to-day runnings of the program in high gear. She is arguably obsessed with social cognition, and the ways in which our knowledge systems' needs, emotions, and behaviors are often unconsciously learned and become resistant to change. She is currently exploring in her research how the need for shared reality with others can interplay with experience to create meaning systems that shape one's values and worldviews. Dr. Liz, we are just so grateful to have you on as we begin to unpack how to have a dialogue by first understanding this idea of basic needs. So thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Liz: Thanks for having me. Super excited to lend my thoughts on this.
Mary: And expertise
Dr. Liz: And expertise. Oh, you know, I try to be a little humble.
Mary: Yeah, I won't let you be. I won't.
Dr. Liz: Thank you. But you know, this is something that, you know, Maslow did give us a great structure to understand this question, right? And you know, Maslow, of course, it's just one perspective on how needs operate within humans. But I think, rather than kind of looking at it and saying, you know, is it the right perspective, or the wrong perspective, it's just sort of it does give us value, right to use this perspective to understand. And so I guess we could start, I can tell you a little bit about what it just is.
Mary: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: Right. So for those of you who aren't aware of it, I mean, you may have some sense of what it is, or heard of it and think of a triangle, right? Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a triangle, you know? And that's a great place to start because one of the things I want to point out is that it's not a square, it's a triangle. So, this is a triangle that is layered, one layer stacked on top of each other to make that shape. And each of those layers represents a need. And at the bottom of the triangle is our most basic needs what Maslow calls our deficiency needs. And we'll talk about what that means in a second, but they layer up so that the bottom ones are most prioritized, or most important, and fundamental. And then as you go up on the triangle, they're important but less fundamental than the one below it.
And, to get to the top of the triangle, you have to start at the bottom. And ultimately you build up to the top of the triangle by meeting the needs that you have at each layer and then you can kind of move up to the layer. Maslow did at one point update his theory actually in the late ‘80s. He came around and said I didn't mean it to seem like it was so rigid. So we have a concept of it being kind of this you have to meet this need to get to the next layer. And, he didn't want it to seem like that, per se. And we'll get more into that in a second.
Now, certainly, meeting one need is going to make it a lot easier to meet the next one, because you don't have competing ones going on at the same time. But you know, he was thinking along the lines of let's say, you know, you're high on the triangle, things happen to you, right, needs pop back up. And so you know, he didn't want it to seem like this sort of this like, rigid, straight and narrow kind of path that we're on. But one of the things to point out is that the top of the triangle is smaller than the bottom of the triangle, right? So at any given moment in time, fewer people are meeting those higher needs. Fewer people are reaching them. There are more people at the bottom than there are at the top. And again, that's why it's not a square.
And so again, when we talk about trying to engage with people, we need to think about, well, where are they and where am I? Because we could be at different places, and we can’t assume that everybody's going to make it to the top. But we'll talk more about that in a second. So he splits this triangle in half basically. He says the bottom part is called deficiency needs, there needs that are triggered by their absence. So these are things that you need to basically survive and feel comfortable in your environment. So food, water, shelter, clothing, sleep, sex, these are these drives that we have kind of biological drives, right? And yes, in a given moment in time, you might feel hunger. But of course, as time goes without food that drives becomes more and more and more pressing on you, right?
So, a neat way to think about Maslow's Hierarchy isn't just where I am in life, but also this moment? What’s pressing me, right? I mean, you think about when you're hungry, and you're trying to do anything else, sometimes all you can think about is your stomach growling right? So you have those basic physiological, and then above that is safety. So you mentioned the word safety. And that's one of the basic categories that Maslow has. And this safety is not only physical security, like job security, or physical safety, like I'm not going to get shot at or murdered, right? It can also mean security emotionally. It can mean having a sense of predictability about the world. Unpredictability, uncertainty, is terrorizing to people to humans. It’s our nature. Our second basic need next to food is feeling like there is some sense of control predictability.
And so one of the things I want to point out with this deficiency need is that it's not just about literal safety, but also psychological safety, a freedom from threats. So it's not just am I going to get murdered, but the possibility that I might get murdered. Right? So it's not just what's going on in reality, per se, or literally right now. But also, what am I thinking about or what is my environment, suggesting to me, that could also trigger that? Does that make sense?
David: Yeah. Absolutely
Mary: Total sense.
David: Yeah, I love that idea of time. Because all of sudden, that visual of the triangle that you paint into my head, it immediately went to into a 3D triangle, right? Like you totally added another dimension. And then just with what you said, around safety is just as an employer, right, like an employee, being able to take risks, an employee being able to be brainstorming to come up with new ideas, like the only way to even engage with that level of work is if there's a safe environment that they know that they're not going to lose their job, hours are going to get cut or anything like that. So to create the environment for the best value from your employee is the work of the leadership or management to really dig super deep in the safety idea.
Dr. Liz: Yeah.
Mary: Yeah, I was just thinking about how in that same sort of story that you're telling David too it's like, the whole point of having a job description or having expectations in your job and all of those things is that it's providing that structure that can help you not be in an anticipatory state but in a present state. And it's almost like threat is sort of being in that anticipation mode, which allows you or does not allow you to bring up that creativity or bring up what comes naturally through safety.
And, another thing, first of all, I so appreciate the visual that you said. It reminded me of our episode on grief where it was like you know, the stages of grief seem linear, but they're not. And so I felt like it was the same thing where it's like that he Maslow said, you know, hey, maybe it was perceived in this way of being sequential, but it's not. And, I think that that's such a valid takeaway, that oftentimes, I just am always wrestling with sort of the intention behind these theories, versus how we perceive them. And so I really appreciate that distinction that you made.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, maybe you are a social psychologist at heart.
Mary: I definitely I’m.
Dr. Liz: Like, it's not just what you put out there, but how it's taken in.
Mary: No doubt, no doubt, and that lens.
Dr. Liz: And also, I don't know, to what extent he kind of later was saying, never mind, I didn't mean to you it was you guys.
Mary: Not my fault, your fault.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, exactly, you know? But it was late. It was like in ‘87 that he made that up like that statement.
Mary: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: But it's also important to realize that any given behavior isn't just driven by one need, right? Even something as simple as eating, people don't just eat because they're hungry, right? Maybe you're eating because you're hungry. But you know, you're not just eating the thing that's in front of you to satiate, that you're eating the chocolate cake because it's comforting and provides a sense of, you know, something else. And so, I think that was another point that he wanted to make that it's not just one. So of course, it couldn't be this rigid thing, because you have multiple needs going into behavior.
Mary: Right. They're all sort of like working cohesively whether one has more prominence than the other is a different story but bringing to highlight. Like one of my therapists in the past mentioned the acronym to me H.A.L.T. And it was that we are not in the best version or best state of ourselves when we're H, hungry, A angry, L, lonely, T tired, H.A.L.T. And so that, like reminds me of this basic needs conversation, because it's given me this context for when to provide grace in conversations, whether it's with my husband or with a friend where there's maybe a conflict. And to remember that, you know, like those snicker bar commercials, it's like, you're not you when you're hungry. So, it's like an anchoring thought that gives a generous perspective rather than necessarily holding them up to a standard that might be unattainable in that state.
Dr. Liz: Yeah. Well, the thing also about our mind is that in social psych, we talked about being cognitive misers, that we are miserly. We're like scrooge when it comes to our resources. Even when you aren't hungry, angry, lonely, tired, and you're scrooge with all your money, you still don't want to give away a penny if you don't have to. Right? So how much more miserly? Are you going to be when you are hungry or taxed? We call it cognitive load, when you're doing something else, you're distracted, or when you're yeah, tax, you don't have any resources, because you've just used them all.
David: I think that that's exactly one of the underlying issues. And I haven't seen very many people talk about it. But one of the underlying issues of what our society is really dealing with right now. Like we are very divided as a country, we know all of that. But to me the context of capitalism and the current evolution, capitalism used to be this, in order for me to win, you have to lose. So like that scrooge mentality, I'm going to keep all of mine, because I might need it down the road, which, you know? but I need to win and therefore you have to lose. I mean, even seeing Donald Trump as a president, that's who he was, as a businessman, everybody else has to lose, and I have to win. Versus this world of social entrepreneurship that I've been trying my best to embody, is changing lens. So like, everybody wins.
The cool part about that is everybody wins, including me, and it is usually just a small shift in business that helps define that. But that to me feels like the conversation in this transition that we find ourselves in. It's not a pie, and we're all just trying to get our piece of the pie. It's not a closed system. So we can still hold on to our own. But by giving other things away, it only makes our pie bigger. It doesn't mean it's going to go less.
Dr. Liz: Yes, yes. Even just social currency, like kindness, you know what I mean? Like, it really does not take that much to be kind. But I think people think it's a weakness, or they think, well, by being kind, you're going to take advantage of me, you know? And I started to realize that there are different values that might be shaping what they're doing. You know what I mean? And maybe it's about teaching people about this concept of maybe it doesn't mean you're going to get manipulated. May be it doesn't mean that you're weak. Maybe it doesn't mean that yeah. You know, so I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, I guess we're digressing a little bit, but you know?
David: No, but it definitely relates like I immediately made me think of the men who are taught that you're not allowed to cry because you're not allowed to be emotional, like versus showing emotion, maybe actually is the strength is where that’s…
Dr. Liz: Yeah. And it's because a couple of people decided that and beat that into them. You know what I mean? And it's somewhat arbitrary if you think about it. And you know that's what gets me going, you know? Like these value systems and these meaning systems can be so arbitrary.
Dr. Liz: Right. That goes back to the needs like if we are having a conversation about healthy masculinity and we're reframing showing emotions is not just anger and happiness when your sports teams win, but here are all these other emotions that you're allowed to have as a man. Unless your basic needs are met, you can't even have that conversation. So absolutely, it all relates to this.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, yeah. And also, you know, to be fair, that philosophy of how you can be emotional was probably a way of the people who are teaching that a way they coped, a way they met their needs, how they felt safe, right? And so, these are things that are handed down, that are scripts. Again, we're miserly, right? So you teach us how to do something and we'll just stick with that because it works to some level to keep me safe. Does that make sense?
David: Absolutely.
Mary: Totally. It's like, if your basic needs aren't getting met, then you will create it in whatever way will make you feel like you're satisfying that need that's not being met that may not be in a traditional way. And maybe not even a societally productive way. But it gave you a sense of safety in the absence of it.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, right. Right. Exactly. You know, and what's tricky about this, too, is that you know, it's unconscious. It's not that people are walking around and going, my safety need has been triggered, right? Even if our body is feeling that fight or flight, right, we sometimes don't even interpret it correctly as that, right? So a lot of these things are happening unconsciously. And then they're passed on unconsciously, you know, through norms and through things. And if it works for a group of people, and I don't mean works like, globally, but like, it allows me to function in the moment then they're gonna keep doing that.
Mary: So how does it manifest when it's not being met? You know, what are some of the interactions with others whose needs are not being met, that you've recognized even if it's not something that can be communicated like you said, it's sort of unconscious like, how does it manifest? And how does it represent?
Dr. Liz: Well, you know, it depends on the need, and possibly a clinical psychologist may be a little bit better at knowing the day-to-day of these things. But you know, I am a relationship psychologist. And so, in relationships, you certainly see people doing things that are not good for the relationship. But obviously, in some way, it must be meeting their needs because they continue to do it. For instance, like, you know, the drastic example of an abusive relationship. This is obviously giving the abuser in some cases, a sense of control. So, they're meeting their need, right, and this is their habit. But of course, it's not something that we would tell people to do. It's not good, because it's meeting your need, right? Does that make sense? Is that answering your question?
Mary: Yeah, that totally makes sense. I was just sitting here feeling like I wanted you to expand on more from the relationship perspective anyways because that's pretty much the essence of what we're trying to get at anyhow. So, sort of just realized like, wow, that's a perfect angle that I wasn't even expecting or realized about you, Dr. Liz.
Dr. Liz: Yeah.
David: And it made me again, go back to this whole tribalism that we find ourselves in, like, one of the most basic means is this relationship and to know and be known to love and be loved, right? So I'm seeing family members or friends that are in a different tribe than me right now. And like, but who is their circle? Oh, there's an element of peer pressure, and being accepted by friends that is shaping political perspectives or viewpoints.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, that's what I call shared reality. It is a basic need. This actually, is a great segway because the next layer of the triangle is belonging. So you have physiological safety, belonging, right? So belonging is about not only having warmth and love and care from people, but also having a shared sense of the world. The basic foundations of friendships, if you think about it, or that we perceive things similarly, otherwise, it doesn't really work, right? And so, our relationships are basically formed and maintained to the extent that you have some kind of shared reality that you have some shared basis of the world. And if that breaks down, nine times out of 10, the relationship is going to break down. So, what people will do is they will cling to shared realities to keep the warmth, even if the shared reality is totally bogus, or even if they're confronted with evidence that shows you that you're wrong,
David: Right. Yeah, facts aren't working right now.
Dr. Liz: You know, because part of it of course, it's super complex and there's a lot more that may be going on as well. But part of that could be that there's this community I'm involved in that thinks this way and I get a lot of validation from them. That's part safety, right being validated. It could also be that validation could feed into the next need that's the next one up, which is esteem. And Maslow breaks down esteem into two different things, my own regard for myself, but esteem from others. And, as we grow up esteem from others is more important than ourselves.
Mary: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: And then as we supposedly as we become adults, ourselves they are a little bit more important. But it is a fundamental, right? So belonging and getting regard from others are kind of mushed into these two layers.
David: Yeah, gosh, I never thought about self-esteem as being that basic need and how important that self-love, self-care is to this conversation.
Dr. Liz: Yeah.
Mary: Yeah, but also just the impact of the external or the esteem from others really sits with me, because first of all, I'm recognizing that I feel very privileged that that's my current issue is the top of the triangle, right? Like, I'm sitting here feeling very humbled by the fact that like, the thing that I wrestle with on the daily has to do with the esteem stuff, and how lucky am I, right? And then suddenly, I feel like I'm going to walk out of this conversation being like, well, it's not maybe not that big of a deal. And that's kind of like life-giving too. And then, the next thing that I'm thinking of too, is just the power of that external influence, and how we put so much weight on it.
And that actually really is worked into the way that we operate and that it's important and that when we have void of connection through the pandemic, and this in person, that we're finding these microcosms of communities online, that I think are surfacing tons of different but smaller, powerful communities, because we can identify ourselves with something very, very defined when otherwise, that was probably not the case. So that feels like not only that you can be seeing more but also that it's creating more of a spectrum that feels at this stage more divisive because there are just 100,000 more types of microcosmic communities than there was prior.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, and with them, each comes to their own truth, their own reality.
Mary: Right.
Dr. Liz: Right. And humans have always been in this case, right? So you can like go to Washington, DC, and find like the ruler, like, what is one inch. There is literally a standard that you can go and take your ruler and bring it and say is the QC on this ruler, okay, right? Do I actually have an inch here, right? But with knowledge, we don't have anything like that. So we're lost. And so if I think something, I don't know if that's true or not, right? But if you think that and you think that now I can feel a little bit more comfortable, right, in thinking this truth. Now, if you've got a community of people who are outspoken and banding together, and it's also meeting these belonging needs, and it's also meeting these safety needs, you know, like immigrants get out, you know, it's meeting all of these needs, certainly, you know, it's going to be harder and harder and harder to breakthrough. Because if you break through, that now opens up all of these needs to bleed. It can get existential really quickly.
Mary: Yeah, it gets existential, real quick, no doubt. So, moving from that place where there are four tiers, you know, can you just sort of summarize and break that down and get to the top because I want to get there as well?
Dr. Liz: So above that line above the esteem is what he calls the growth needs. These aren't triggered by them not being or having not been satisfied for a while. They're triggered by you meeting the bolognas. So once you kind of get up esteem again, maybe not perfectly right, but you get a sense of physiological, safety, belonging, esteem, now you go up to what he calls cognitive needs. And this is a need for knowledge, for education, for expanding. And then above that is an aesthetic need, so things to look nice or art, right? And then above that is self-actualization, which is where you are using your skills and your unique personhood to do something uniquely you, and then above that is transcendence. And that's when you are kind of not thinking of yourself anymore. And you're doing things for others.
Mary: Whoa. Okay, so now I have like a whole other thing because I was like, oh, man, you know, feeling privileged with the esteem and then was also like, okay, there's some work actually that I need to do.
Dr. Liz: Yeah. There's a lot of things.
Mary: And hence the therapy I'm in, right. I love the way that you can bring the visualization to this. And of course, to our listeners like, well, we'll provide the visual too, if that's the way that you learn. But I'm sort of just sitting with this conversation already, even though we've all probably heard of it feeling like I've learned so much. And we're only just getting started. So thank you.
Dr. Liz: Yeah. Of course. To answer your beginning question about, you know, how do we help meet other people's needs to get them to a place, my first response would be, you gotta get your house in order.
Mary: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: There ain't no way that you're going to help somebody else if you're not straight.
Mary: But it is so interesting because you bring that up and I think of some of the, you know, in this Eastern wellness world that I'm sort of plugged into, there's so many healers, that that you know, that there's a representation that they're like, not necessarily having taken care of their own backyard in order to do that. And I just find that interesting how it healers and those that want to engage in these conversations or engage in this work usually come from a place right come from that personal perspective, that very close know-how it really does go back to this age-old thing, put your oxygen mask on first, right? I mean, we hear this all the time. And do you think that since we're having this conversation, that those two things can be done simultaneously, that you can be taking care of your own house and also extending at the same time?
Dr. Liz: Yes, I love that you brought that up because again, it kind of comes back to the Maslow correcting right and saying, wait a minute, you can do multiple things, right? I just think that you should have a sense of your house so that you don't end up trying to help other people in the wrong way. Or maybe you're helping them to meet your own needs. And it becomes about you right, and so certainly that that is part of it. But the other point, too, I wanted to make so I'm glad you brought this up, is that Maslow also didn't think that a self-actualized or a transcendent person was a perfect person. And some of them can actually be assholes. Like, there's nothing here that says you're going to self-actualize into Gandhi.
Mary: Right.
Dr. Liz: Now he did study Gandhi and Mother Teresa and things like that. And you know, there are some reports that Mother Teresa was kind of an asshole.
David: Very interesting.
Mary: I didn't know that.
Dr. Liz: I mean, don't quote me on this, I guess you are quoting him this, but I could be wrong. But I think that she was kind of mean and punishing, you know, it's like revised history now they're telling you how it really is. These guys are Yeah, she wasn't just this, like, you know, kind, human being, you know, and Maslow did study her as part of this. I mean, he should have studied more women, it was mostly men. But he didn't say that this process turns you into a good, kind, perfect person. He said, you can be silly, you can make mistakes. And so you know, that's why it's a lifelong thing. You don't just arrive at self-actualization, and you sit there at the mountaintop waiting for other people to get there you know, it's a constantly evolving kind of thing, right?
But again, there are also many cases where people who I want to make two points here that are the flip side of the same coin. So, people who don't have basic means can sometimes do amazing things in their community. So one of the examples I'm thinking of is Michael Thompson, who just got clemency from Michigan. He got taken out of jail for being there for decades for a nonviolent marijuana charge. And so he's 69. He's been in jail for, you know, 30 years or, you know, the longest-serving person in the United States for this kind of offense. And as soon as he got out, he is now doing work with, you know, the marijuana industry to make it better and exonerate more people. Right?
Now, granted, the internet got together and bought them a house. So he did have some grassroots people waiting for him and giving him some basic things. But you know, he wasn't about Okay, I have to march up this way before I can reach out to other people. He is doing both. And if you look at his Instagram, he's like doing pushups. You know, he's eating all great food. He's never had ice cream in decades, you know, but he's also sitting down and talking with politicians and doing work right. So you can do both, even if you are working towards it. Right.
Mary: Yeah. Even if you're not getting all of those basic needs met. Yeah, well, thanks for sharing that story because I didn't know of his story in particular, but I have heard of this push to move through those nonviolent charges of people that are just sitting in jail or prison cell and they were charged on something that has long passed being a violent or criminalizing action.
Dr. Liz: Yep, exactly. And so like, you know, for him to come out and just immediately want to turn to others, he's 70, you know, just about 70. It's incredible. But then you have on the flip side of that coin, plenty of people who have all of their basic needs met, and then some, and they're scrooge with their money and their resources, and they don't want to have the conversation. They don't want to do the work. So what's going on there? S, it's complicated, you know? And maybe the problem with people who have those resources, men who don't want to do the work is this thing we were talking about before with threat, right?
Mary: It's so fear-based. I mean, when I think of greed and narcissism, I just think that ultimately, it's coming from fear, or at least that's a piece giving truth for me. Whether that's the case or not, that helps me have compassion for something that when I've related with either one of those tendencies, it's hard for me to make sense of it otherwise.
Dr. Liz: Right? Right. Exactly. And, you know, narcissism is complicated, but some of it certainly is fear, you know? And that certainly, it's a threat. It’s a psychological threat, right? And the way that they have dealt with that is to build up a front, you know, where everybody's wrong, and they're right. They've got it and you don't, right? Again, it's this idea we're meeting needs, but at what costs right, and they're not recognizing that cost. Meeting needs isn't necessarily always the good thing, or the right thing, or the adaptive thing. So, it's very interesting when you think well, how can we help people who theirs need aren't being met to have these conversations? The answer may be more complicated than just give them a house. And,
David: well, I'm going back to the Mother Teresa being an asshole, I can see.
Mary: I’m sorry, that's just too good. That's just too good.
David: But I can see it in the hierarchy, her job was to help other people meet that most basic level of need. And then she was at the top philanthropic care for others. But I'm not going to give you love, we're not going to work on being nice to each other, because people need their basic needs met of water. So, kind of going up the hierarchy, she wasn't going to be nice, because that need wasn't relevant to the most basic needs. And that's what was driving her. So even with unpacking, if whether that's true or not all of a sudden makes a whole lot of sense that it could be
Dr. Liz: That's exactly what I'm saying. When I say doesn't matter, necessarily, right or wrong, and how we're using the theory, it's the value that we get out of using the theory and exercising the theory, and understanding these concepts. Right?
Mary: Yeah. Beautiful.
David: So I'm walking away from less about well, two things one, how important it is to get my own house in order, as I'm thinking and striving towards thinking of other people. And then two is, while there is working, becoming an advocate, you know, learning to change the narrative from I'm not racist to becoming an anti-racist, and that work within, on that higher plane it's almost, I can do some things to help other people meet their basic needs. But it sounds like most importantly, is simply being aware that the awareness factor of they may or may not have their basic needs met, and therefore, it's going to just be a barrier to the depth of conversation that we want to have.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, well, you know it's not at the same level at as what we're talking about, and, like rural areas and things like that. But also I work with master's students, I mean, talk about how not having basic needs, you know, these students you know barely have food money. You know, their parents are able to help them and can do that a lot of them are struggling. And, then they're sitting here grappling with all these psychological concepts, at least in my program, you know? I mean, I sit with them every day and I'm just like, wow, look what you're doing. Like this is amazing. You know?
David: There's a college here in the city, it's a community college. There's a lot of really great degree programs that this campus offers. But there's a food pantry on the campus to meet these college students. And it's sponsored by Kroger. Kroger is based in Cincinnati and so you know, huge grocery put this all together, but there still is this psychological need, even if a student is hungry, they may or may not utilize the services because there's like this stigma of oh, I can't fit in. So it's really just interesting layers of barrier for even that.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, I mean, funny too, because when I was in my Ph.D. program, two of my cohort members, they had a constant list of all the different receptions that was going on, like, oh, the library is having a reception, because we knew that there would be cheese, and there would be wine.
Mary: That's genius. Let's be honest, I love that that's genius. I would have never even had that forethought.
Dr. Liz: And like, it's stigma-free, right? It's like, actually, we're engaging with our community and intellect. And meanwhile, we're like popping in grabbing a plate running.
Mary: Yeah, you're networking? Obviously.
Dr. Liz: Exactly, you know? But coming back to that point, too, though, is what I've learned is like, obviously I can't pay for their school, I can't pay for their housing. What can I do to help them as their mentor or their advisor? I really feel helpless sometimes. But pull me back to what you said, David is like, holding some space for them, allowing them to be where they are having patience, you know, and saying, okay, sure, you get this lesson, and you get one bite out of this lesson, as opposed to understanding the whole of the lesson, then, you know, that's for you today. And that's great, you know? That’s what you could do today. Sometimes being told that it's okay can go a long way for that, you know? So I don't know what that looks like in conversations about racism.
David: But I can speak to like the tribalism, you know, within the family that that feels like I'm in deep conflict with. For me, it was very helpful to see and again, maybe this is true or not true. But it was helpful for me to assume that there's this basic need of belonging that is being met, where they're at. And while we completely disagree on politics at the moment, I could at least acknowledge that there's this need that they're seeking and to hold space for it in this loving way. And just to know that, while at least they're being loved in this manner, even if I think it's unhealthy. It's, it's a need, and I have to honor it.
Dr. Liz: Yeah. Right. Right. And you know, if you can connect them to resources, or something that's a healthier way of meeting that need, you could try but that's also not on you.
David: Right.
Mary: Yeah. Or your place sometimes or many times, right?
Dr. Liz: That’s it. Boundaries are really important, right? And we come back to relationship psychology and boundaries are one of the hardest things that people struggle with.
Mary: Yeah. To define even and yeah, because it's such a living, breathing thing. I mean, to even recognize the boundaries being pushed is usually represented in some unproductive way before you even know that oh, that's actually my boundary talking, right?
Dr. Liz: Yeah. Right. Right. And so I'm supposed to have the wherewith all, you know, me expecting you to tell me when my behavior is bothering you, in some clear way, when you are overwhelmed. It's so hard, it's so hard. And expect them to do it perfectly also, you know, really day to day life really requires a lot more understanding and compassion.
Mary: Yeah, I think that my you know, David, your takeaways really resonate with me too. But my takeaway is sort of just the acknowledgement, it's almost like, just in that. And I don't know, necessarily, like I'm also sitting here wrestling with that sometimes, calling out when someone's needs aren't getting met, maybe really uncomfortable for them and triggering. So there's some finesse to when you do call that out or not. And then there's sort of the more subtle ways of acknowledging that compassion without having to name it. But I feel very clear that's one of the greatest forms of compassion is just acknowledging what whether it's tangible or not, at least within yourself so that you can operate and relate to them and communicate to them in a more effective way.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and you can say, “Okay, I validate what you got out of your experiences. I might not agree with it. But I can see how you got that to where you're coming from.” I mean, my parents are from a different tribe than me as well. And this is just one example, right? I'm not trying to say this is how you reach any of them. But I know sometimes, in speaking with my dad, the two of us at better time realizing, oh, that's your perspective, because he had really bad experiences with the Teamsters union and the mob.
David: Right. Absolutely, yeah.
Dr. Liz: Oh, no. Well, no wonder you know? Oh, you're coming from here. Okay, well, I can totally understand that. Tell me about that. Oh, my God, Well, wait, union people are you know? And it becomes is a bonding thing for us rather than us talking about unions, you know? And so I think the other thing to try to do is set the expectations of what you can influence or change to be smaller and slower, than okay, we're going to sit down and have a conversation in an hour and I'm going to convince you that you're racist, right?
I mean, it's even just about at first understanding, where are they? Then saying, are you ready to hear what this concept is? And then can we talk about maybe once you understand that it's a concept? I'm not trying to say it's here, just this concept, right? What is White privilege? Let's just talk about what it is. Let's leave you out of it. Can you understand what we're saying on from this? You know, and that's so hard. So you’re right you have to tread so carefully. It's work, right? And if you're hungry, or angry, or lonely or tired, it's going to be that much harder too.
David: Yeah. I think that that’s even again what triggered why this conversation is just critical for me.
Dr. Liz: And honestly I would be surprised if we figured this in a year or two. It’s going to take generations.
David: Yeah, a long time.
Dr. Liz: Right?
Mary: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: And I think what nice about is approaching it this way makes you realize that maybe it’s not so much this is a bad person.
David: Right.
Mary Right.
Dr. Liz: This is a person who is trying to meet their need and has been misguided by their unconscious desires, by society. I don’t want to excuse it because it certainly does have bad outcomes but it can help you approach it as I’m not gearing up to engage with the devil, you know?
David: Yeah. That wraps it so well. Like we have been saying so often that the work of the third place is just beginning. It’s going to take a long time. And that’s why we wanted to start here and have this as an early part of the conversation. Because it is going to take a long time. But boy if we could all take these micro-steps and if we could all invite others to micro-steps and even in this basic needs hierarchy and framework then maybe we can start to see where we want to go even it’s just generations from now. Because like we just said at the beginning we should have been having this conversation 100 years ago. Well, we haven’t but we can have it today. And so it can start today so that 100 years from now we can be like okay and we’re the next level of hierarchy.
Dr. Liz: No kidding. Amen to that. Normalize micro-steps.
Mary: That’s great. I think having this conversation with you has been exactly what we were hoping to deliver and more. And you know thank you so much for your ability to convey it in such an approachable and digestible way.
Dr. Liz: Oh thank you. I mean this is my passion, you know?
Mary: It’s so clear and I think when I think of the needs thing I think if more of us were able to have the ability to be expressing the thing that we are the most passionate about too that’s when we are going to continue to find more of that homeostasis. So, it’s truly been such a pleasure to have you on.
Dr. Liz: Thank you.
Mary: So is there any way for our listeners to connect with you personally?
Dr. Liz: They can email me.
Mary: Cool. Give us your email.
Dr. Liz: It’s Ep915@NYU.edu.
Mary: Great.
Dr. Liz: And my name is Liz Bolinski but I tell my students you never have to say that ever.
Mary: Say that five times and they’re like…
Dr. Liz: Yeah, there’s no quiz. You will never have to pronounce it. It looks a lot worse than it actually is so Liz Bolinski but yeah you can actually just reach to Liz no problem.
Mary: Cool. Thank you, Dr. Liz.
Dr. Liz:
David: Thank you so much.
Mary: Be well.
We'd love to tell you guys about another amazing podcast ‘The Going Beyond’ with Randi Zinn. Randy is an author, mother, and entrepreneur who is curious about living a life that is always evolving. This lifestyle podcast covers health, both of the mind and the body, self-care, business and entrepreneurship, and cultural disruption plus topics that we sometimes avoid. Does that sound a little familiar? Well, we think that you would love it because it does feel like an extension of the work that we're doing here on the third place.
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