Ep 28 - New Year, Know You! Series - Thinker vs Feeler and Judging vs Perceiving of Myers Briggs with Laura Jackson
Last week's episode covered the history of Myers Briggs and the first two letters of the powerful, personaity categorization tool. Today's episode wraps up the two remaining letters of "preferences." Feeling versus Thinking and Perceiving versus Judging.
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TRANSCRIPT:
David: So last week, Laura Jackson introduced us to Myers Briggs, introvert versus extrovert and sensing versus intuition. Mary, you studied psychology, you've taken the Myers Briggs before, I'm curious to know, what takeaway did you get from last week's conversation that you didn't know before?
Mary: The main thing I learned, and it's been a process for me, is that I have always considered myself very intuitive. And so, testing as someone that was what's considered out of preference where you sort of test in between, it's in the middle of sensing and intuitive, I like thought it was like, I got a bad grade when I tested as a sensing, because I'm so proud of being an intuitive. That learning that spiritual intuition is very different from testing as an intuitive on the Myers Briggs. I would say that that's probably my biggest takeaway because I am definitely a sensing person. It's more about processing information, how you process information, and that I've gathered clarity over our conversations and acceptance, in being a sensing type.
David: Right. Yeah, I think very similarly, for me, the whole conversation around introvert versus extrovert, I need alone time. I love riding my bike by myself. I love taking walks in nature. Especially right now with a one and three-year-old and COVID and no such things as babysitting, the brief, super rare moments when I have like five minutes and zero people are in the home with me, I'm like, I stop. I just stopped in my tracks. I'm like, “Oh, this feels really good.”
Mary: I can breathe.
David: Yeah, I can breathe. And of course, you know, like, the extrovert in me needs all that space too.
Mary: Right. Yeah. You're the best dad and you love your kiddos, all the things.
David: But the processing the information like I kept… I've known Laura for a couple of years now and I kept saying no, I'm an introvert, I promise. I know, the test keeps telling me I'm an extrovert. And yes, I can play in an extrovert world really well. But after like, a big gathering, and I meet a whole bunch of strangers, and I have no problem doing that. I like, get in my car, and I put my hat on and I'm like, okay, I can listen to whatever music I want. I can just be in my own head for a minute. And I need that. So that's why I always thought, no, I'm an introvert. No, I'm an introvert. Or really what I thought was, I'm really on the line I can play in both worlds. But I need that alone space so therefore I am more of an introvert.
Mary: Yeah, it's like just the concept of preference.
David: Yeah. And so the processing of the information and absolutely, I process out loud. I was like, oh, it doesn't mean as an extrovert, that I don't like to be by myself. It just means that I process information with other people. And that's really important for me. And so, I think breaking down all of these. Today, we're going to get into thinking versus feeling as well as judging and perceiving. And I think with all of these, there's a little bit of misconception around them. Like, if I'm a feeler, that doesn't mean, well, we know because of our breed that I'm more emotional. But a feeler doesn't necessarily mean that there is all emotion and no thought. And vice versa, a thinker. Just because they process information in that way does not mean they're not without emotions, and that they're very cold or anything like that.
One of the things I really love about Laura's test, so we, Mary and I, in preparation for this took a deeper assessment from Myers Briggs, it is kind of like a beginner's version. And then there's a deeper version. And what I really loved about this deeper version, and I would recommend just anyone to take that with someone else and kind of explore your personality with other people is that there are these like five subcategories within each one. So, thinking versus feeling on the thinking side had logical, reasonable, questioning, critical thought, and tough-mindedness. And the opposites on the feeling side, were empathetic, compassionate, accommodating, accepting, and tender. So, logical versus empathetic, reasonable versus compassionate, questioning versus accommodating, critical versus accepting, tough versus tender.
And what I loved about this particular breakdown is I am that feeler. But between questioning and accommodating, I'm very much a thinker. So, I'm very heavy on the feeling side on four out of the five categories, but in one category, pretty heavy on the thinking side. And so that took it to a whole another level of just being able to process and we dive into this in this episode coming up.
Mary: Yeah, I think that you just touched on that that it's just like anything. It's like when you go to a website and you click on a major header, then it sort of unveils the rest of the detail that you can find, right? So, it's so easy for us to be limited to the idea of like, okay, are you T versus F? Are you a thinker versus a feeler? But in actuality, if you like, click that T, and it unveils the rest of the menu that gives more description and more context to what it means. And that you may primarily lean towards being a thinker or a feeler. It's just way more complex than that. And you can really dive in deep with comprehensive testing, like what we did.
You know, it was great to have that sort of like blanketed, I call it the four-letter word like we talked about it that like your Myers Briggs is your four-letter word. But when you really dive deeper, and why our conversations with Laura have been so profound to me, is when you look at each segment within each of those preferences, and those types, and see that, while the majority may lean one way, you still have pieces of you that probably lean the other way too.
David: So where we left off, Laura was talking about sensing versus intuition. And we started to dance into the thinking, feeling conversation. And then very specifically, you know, thinking and sensing is very different than thinking and intuitive. Same thing with feeling and sensing and feeling and intuitive. So, just to kind of bring everybody up to speed, we're going to play this clip real quick just to catch where we left off.
Laura: And then one of the things is the difference of the pairs, the internal pairs. So, intuitive thinkers are different than intuitive feelers. So intuitive thinkers tend to intuit big ideas. Intuitive feelers, tend to intuit people. They can read people really well. So here's an example of an intuitive thinker. They’re going to walk into, let's say, a huge space that is completely open and they're going to see all the possibilities. “You know, I can see opening a food pantry for 1000 people, and we're going to be able to feed you know, eradicate hunger. And it's going to be done in such a unique way that's never been done before. And then we're going to transport it to other cities where they can do it as well. And, pretty soon we're going to have CNN here filming us. And, we're going to put the cameras right over there in the corner.”
The sensing person comes in, and they see the same raw space, and they're like, “Oh, my gosh, look at this raw space. How are we going to build the walls? You know, do we have enough money for electric? How's the plumbing work of, you know, do we have enough for refrigeration? How is the roof? And we'll never get it done in time.” So you can see how you need both, you need the visionary, but you also need the practical.
And I heard someone say one time that there are three sensing people for every intuitive. And the reason is it takes three sensing people to execute whatever cockamamie idea that the intuitive has thought up, which is so true. And then you've got the intuitive feelers, which is me. And sometimes people will say, “Well, how do you know that?” I don't know. I just know. But I will remember facts that people have told me in the past. I'm making connections about people's behavior and their feelings. So, there's a bit of a distinction between the intuitive feeler and the intuitive thinker.
Mary: That portion of what Laura said really struck me too, because not only was that excerpt, really powerful to me, but we even got an email speaking specifically to this. And, I just want to share this really quickly that this listener said that they really enjoyed the EI versus SN podcast. But what particularly stood out to her was the part where we discussed intuitive thinker versus intuitive feeler. And she says this, she says, “Growing up, I've always explained to others that I tend to, “catch information and file it away”. Then, when something comes up that relates to that piece of information, it would help me form an understanding of the person in front of me, as well as actually guide my intuition in knowing if someone was being honest. The way Laura described her experience about her now good friend read the “B” group is very similar to how I relate to others. It was so cool to hear my understandings be put into words.”
David: That's such a great email and thank you for sending that in. And, I think that is the beauty of this community and the topics that we're trying to explore is giving words to how we think and feel how we process information. You know, it's so beneficial for all of our relationships.
Mary: The second half is just as good as the first. We hope that everyone can participate in taking a test online, sending us your feedback, just like some of the emails we've already gotten. That's the beauty of what we're trying to do. Like David said, it provides language it's sort of like speaking the unspeakable.
David: Love it. Well, have a good week everyone.
Mary: Be well.
[Intro-music]
Mary: We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David: It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering, and engaging dialogue.
Mary: You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self, equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David: Thank you for listening.
Mary: We invite you in to the third place.
David: For me, I am intuitive feeler. But even just within thinking and feeling, I definitely feel like at the end of the day, I'll trust my gut. I always say that I think really well too. Like I'll think through something then I'll feel through something then I’ll think through something. So this particular pair, even though I'm intuitive feeler, I personally reflect more intuitive thinker, more just in the combination.
Laura: Well, and as we said, we all use both. And, really to be a balanced person is to develop both your primary and auxiliary and be able to use them. It’s which one do you use first. Typically, people have a go-to and then just as you said, David, you switch hats. And in different settings, you may go to a different preference just because of need. You’re a business owner. So you're going to have to intuitive think to be creative, and think of new ideas. But knowing you, you always do it in the context of the people.
David: Right.
Laura: How is this going to affect the people? I hear that all the time in your language.
David: Right. And I think, to your point, like, I've always been only a business owner. I've always only led teams. So every decision I've made, I've had to adjust and I've just gotten good at it. Where I put feelings first, I put the care of people first, but I also have to put the organization's health first so that there's a job that people can have. So the thinker has to kind of dominate in that particular area.
Laura: Yeah, well, that's just balance. And that's a healthy balance to have. So leading into thinking feeling this is one that's misunderstood just as often as extrovert-introvert. It doesn't mean that thinkers don't feel or feelers don't think, first of all. And, thinking is simply making decisions first, using logic and consistency. Feelers make decisions based on values, not their feelings, not emotion, its values. It's typically how is this going to affect the people around me? So, I think that is confusing to people because I hear that mostly with the feeling side, “Oh, yeah. I'm such a feeler.”
David: And that's exactly the language that helped me to like, clarify. As you and I were, you know, getting to know each other, I'm like, “I'm on the line of introvert-extrovert.” And you're like, “No, you’re not. I said, “Yes, I am”. And then, I would also say, “I’m on the line on thinker and feeler because I do both.” And you're like, “No, you're not. There is no line.” But the values.
Laura: Yeah.
David: I am so driven by values. And ironically, we started this podcast about embracing the gray space. But the values I think so much in black and white about, like, you know, love is the most important thing, value. So everything else just builds on that and there is no gray space for me on that.
Laura: Yeah. And really, the thinking preference is really about fairness. But how fairness looks is it should be fair for everybody. So a lot of times in law enforcement, you find a lot of thinkers, you know, I don't care why you were speeding, you were speeding. It's fair for everybody. So I can't make an exception for you because that wouldn't be fair. Often telling the truth is more important than being tactful. Also, they will want to look for logical explanations or solutions to just about everything. So, it's really about making decisions finding basic truth regardless of the specific situation,
Whereas feelers when they're making a decision they weigh about what matters to people, what people care about. They're concerned with harmony. They’re concerned with just that Kumbaya feeling, and they are uncomfortable when that's missing. And they will express concern for others. So, they make decisions with their hearts. They want to be compassionate. They believe that being tactful is more important than the ‘cold truth’ in air quotes. Sometimes they can be seen as too idealistic, or mushy, or indirect.
So, one of the big arguments that we've seen in this country, and I don't want to start a political conversation, but you guys said I could be candid, is DACA. That's a typical thinking, feeling conversation, where one side saying, rules are the rules. You can't make exceptions for people. It's not fair. And the other side is saying, but what about the people? It's not their fault. They can't help it. That's the feeling side. Now, I'm not saying all thinkers are opposed to DACA. That's not the point. But you see how this happens. It's not either right or wrong. It's just a different way of looking at a problem.
So the question I always ask when I'm doing training, it's the conversation of okay, so you are a store owner. And, you know, that a man has just lost his wife. And he's got six kids, and he's really low on money, and you see him walking out of the store without paying for his groceries, what do you do? And a lot of the thinkers will say, “I can't help that. It's not fair for him to not pay for his groceries.” Now, they may be compassionate, and say, you know, we'll work out a payment plan or something. But I've had just as many thinkers say, he goes to jail. You can't break the law.
And then on the feeling side, a lot of times you'll get the feeling people to say, “Oh, well, I would just give them to them because the poor guy, you know, he probably needs the food. And, I would let him off the hook.” That's often what the feeling preference would say. And then I'll say, “Okay, well, I didn't say it was groceries. What if it were beer and cigarettes? How does that change things?” And the thinking side is the same thing, the law applies. And the feeling side would say, “Oh, well, you know if it's beer and cigarettes, that kind of changes things because the values have changed.” Although one lady said to me one time, “Well if he's got six kids and his wife died, he probably needs the beer and cigarettes.” So, she would let it go. So that's the thinking, feeling preference.
Mary: I was just thinking that, so David and I did, we made a guided visualization that we call Generous Perspectives visualization. And it makes so much sense. The visualization, we put it out there so that people could find a feeling perspective, essentially. You know, when you're cut off in traffic, are you the person that says, “That's not right, you cut me off? You know you should?” Or are you the person that says, “What if they're rushing to the hospital?” And I've always been the person that just like the woman, the example that you said, plays all scenarios out that give what I call a generous perspective, right? Something that I learned in therapy once where it was like, how can you find that visualization of a person being a baby or an infant. What can help you access empathy? And, that just has resonated with me so much. And, it is definitely my default.
David: You know, for me, I've said on this podcast, how I'm not a fan of Donald Trump and his presidency, and a lot of the interactions. But one of the things that really, I don't know, just brought the humanity to the whole thing was when his niece wrote the book about his childhood and how he was abandoned as a two-year-old. Having a two-year-old myself when that was published, I was like, oh, like, that was a punch in the gut. Because if my kid was left alone and went through those circumstances, went through an abandonment stage, I can't even imagine the pain that would cause and the ramifications and long term effects. So, not that it would dismiss behavior that I disapproved of as much as it helped me give a human perspective to someone else that really frustrated me.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, that's probably a whole another podcast as well, but it's the root cause analysis. People's behavior is based on something, all of us. And we can really create empathy by taking a step back and trying to understand. It's the old St. Francis seek first to understand, than to be understood. That Stephen Covey too. So the last one is the difference between judging and perceiving. So the J and the P. So on this podcast, we have a J and a P, both. And that's a very different way of dealing with your lifestyle. That's a lifestyle choice.
So, do you like things to be decided or do you prefer to stay open to new information and options? So a lot of people when they see a J, they think it means judgmental, but they're not related at all. It just is how, whether you prefer to have the boxes ticked and the decision made, or do you prefer to keep your options open. And the same with a P, it doesn't mean that perceiving people have more perception. So Js like to have things decided, they prefer a planned and orderly way of life. They love lists, absolutely love lists. And, sometimes they can appear to be very task-oriented. In general, they prefer to get their work done before playing. And they like to bring life under control.
And as a work style, this really hit us in our office. I'm a J, the owner of the company's a J, and we had a P, as a creative director. And one of the things I learned when I was doing Myers Briggs training is that Js if you hand them a project and say you have 30 days to do it, when do you start it? Well, most J's will look at it right away. And, they will start kind of parceling it out over time. So, it kind of looks like a jagged line, just very systematically, getting through the project, even if they don't do it all right away.
Now the Ps are just the opposite. They will wait and wait and wait. Maybe if it's a 30-day project, it's day 27 or 28, before they start working on it. And their line looks more like an iceberg like way up in the sky. It's the same amount of energy, but they are energized by an approaching deadline and stimulated. So they will tend to get it all done in the last two or three days. And the Ps, they liked to understand and adapt to the world rather than organizing it. So, they may make a list but they're not really concerned about it. It’s more to keep them on track. But if it's not completed at the end of the day, it's not a big deal. They may even lose it. They like to approach work as play and mix it up. And they work in bursts of energy.
So, one of the things I found really funny, my daughter that I mentioned before, she's married to a P, she's a J, they were looking for a house. And they knew exactly what they wanted. In the market, they were in that house didn't come up very often. So one day their realtor called and said your dream house just went on the market. But it's going to be off the market in a day, you need to go and look at it. So, they did. They went and looked at it. They were the first people. And before they were done touring the house, there were two other people in the driveway coming to look at it. So they wrote an offer right away. The offer was accepted that afternoon. And they were ecstatic jumping around, screaming, yelling, it was great.
And then all of a sudden my son-in-law, the P was like, “Oh, I think this was a mistake. You know, I think we'd made a decision too soon.” And he started noticing everything about that house that was a negative. And my daughter called me and she's like, “Mom, I don't know what happened. This is our dream house. Why is he being so negative?” And he was even saying, “Well, we'll just fix it up and sell it.” And I said, “Mary, you've got to let him sit with it. He's a P. You made him make a decision. You had to make a decision too quickly, or very quickly, not too quickly. And now he's having buyer's remorse because he needed days to sit with it.” And sure enough, a year later they loved the house they've been there for I don't know how many years. But that made him uncomfortable being pushed into a decision too soon.
So, I like to say with Ps and J's the J will wake up in the morning with an idea in their head of the things the tasks they have to get done by the end of the day. And they're so happy to get them done. Get them ticked off. You know, first I'm going here, then I'm going there. And oh, by the way, that store is right next to it. And it's very efficient and effective. And Mary, you're laughing so you see this.
Mary: I should show you my journal, yesterday.
Laura: Oh look, they're all checked off, I love it. And the Ps are like, “Okay, I've got this list. But oh, look, there's a garage sale, let's just stop.” Or, “Hey, do you want to go out and have a beer? Let's go try that new restaurant.” That's the difference in life. Same with vacations, Js will have an agenda Ps show up and just want to wait and see how it goes. So there's a difference.
Mary: There feels like a similarity between the N and the P like if you had to sort of categorize them. I feel like there are similar traits that come through. It's interesting that David is both. So David's an ENFP. I am an ESFJ. And Laura, what are you?
Laura: ENFJ.
Mary: ENFJ.
Laura: But I’m somewhere between the two.
Mary: Yeah, yeah, you're the gray space. You’re the third space.
Laura: That’s funny.
Mary: The third place. But what I was thinking though is just that the perceiving like that there is this openness, the spaciousness that comes with being a P. Just like being an intuitive.
Laura: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Well, and I love how, like, you know, very practically speaking, again, knowing yourself, gives you the tools and language to be able to know and learn about other people. And, you know, in a working relationship, you know, so the J of Mary and the P of me. You know, Mary's the list person, I'm the one that, yeah, we'll make the list together but I may or may not follow it, or if it's not complete, no big deal.
So, even just very practically speaking, you know, when we think through a topic, it's, you know, let's make an outline. So here's what a compromise looks and feels like. So, we'll make an outline, whether it's a newsletter, whether it's what we think we're going to talk about in the podcast episode. And that outline kind of meets both of us in the middle. So, the outline gives us the structure that Mary needs in the J, and it keeps us on track. But it also by being an outline, and not right now, it gives some flexibility to be able to go off-script. But then immediately get back on how critical would be the success of the podcast, the success of businesses.
Mary: Or relationships, yeah.
David: Or any team, yeah any team, any relationship to understand each other so that we can find that space that really works well, for both.
Laura: Yeah. You know, I mentioned earlier, my colleague and I both being Js and our creative director being a P. And, when I came back from Myers Briggs training several years ago, I called him right away and said, we need to apologize to her. Because we had, without knowing it completely without malice, imposed our way of living on her. And, would push her. “So how are you with this project? Are you getting this project done?” And we would be so frustrated that she hadn’t started it. Now, if she wasn't meeting a deadline, that's a whole another kettle of fish. But once we realized that it was her work style to put it off to the very end, well that changed things because we were just letting her be her.
But on the flip side, I had a conversation with her about that, because she would get really frustrated. “Why do you guys bug me? Why are you always asking me how I'm doing?” And I said, “Well, what do you do when people do that?” And she says, “Well, I just ignore them.” See the flip side was she wasn't validating other people's preference. I said, “What would it be like if you just said, I will have it done by the deadline, or it's going to be done by Thursday. Then the J will check it off their list and be done with it. And that was life-changing for her because we all loved each other. And it worked out great. We worked together. But what about our clients?
Mary: Yeah.
Laura: It helped her in her business to be able to satisfy her customers more once we understood preference.
Mary: Yeah, and I think when you understand preference, then, you know slowly but surely what David and I are doing or what I'm always trying to do as a J, is shift the responsibilities into maybe things that are less time-sensitive so that it can be in preference for him and still serve the end goal or end preference for me. And so it's like, with that awareness, besides, you know, pushing someone, you know, pigeonholing them into something, maybe there is a way to, to adjust things to put it in preference.
I mean, maybe even like I'm thinking, in my marriage, at home, and the way that you run your household, what are the things that you need to do? And how can you distribute those tasks that make sense with what's in preference? Which kind of leads to that, like, you know, strengths, finding and being in the strengths. But I like the idea of what's in preference. Like what comes naturally and how can your environment and the way that you lead your life or the things that you're responsible, really sort of aligned with that?
Laura: Absolutely.
Mary: Every time we talk, I always learn so much more and feel like you so eloquently, and so succinctly give me an even deeper understanding of these pairings. I can't thank you enough.
Laura: Oh, it's so wonderful to talk about this and such a privilege to be on this podcast.
Mary: Yeah. Well, thank you, David, for bringing Laura to our lives.
David: Yeah. I mean, what a privilege. So, Laura, for those that want to go deeper, you know, what are some practical steps that people can do to embrace Myers Briggs, one? And then two, you know, what does connecting with you and your work look like?
Laura: Well, I do have an email address and all. I do have contact information that I can give you that people can contact me. Myers Briggs, typically, of course, I'm a Myers Briggs certified. There's all kinds of knockoffs out there. But I prefer the real Myers Briggs because it is the one that's scientific, and more accurate. And, there's so much support material. So, if not me, someone else who is certified in Myers Briggs, by the Myers Briggs Company, definitely find a coach or a trainer who can do that.
Mary: Yeah. And we'll be sure to share your email information in our newsletter. And, don't forget to sign up if you haven't already at ThirdPlacePodcast.com. Well, thank you, Laura, so much.
Laura: Thank you. It was fun.
