Ep 29 - Curiosity and Humility
So many of us are hoping we are entering a season of UNITY. We have been through several difficult seasons and in their wake, we find ourselves not only divided as a country, but also among family and friends.
So now what? How do we move towards the unity we crave? Is it just an idealistic idea that will forever be out of reach, or can we actually move back towards each other? In this episode, Mary and David discuss how CURIOSITY and HUMILITY play major roles in how we approach conversations centered around rebuilding and reconnecting.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Mary: We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David: It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering, and engaging dialogue.
Mary: You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self, equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David: Thank you for listening.
Mary: We invite you in to the third place.
David: So really, since the beginning of our podcast, one of the things that we've been saying over and over again, is just how important the work of the third place is getting through the election, getting through the New Year, getting through COVID. All of it is bringing together multiple perspectives. And, we've got to figure out how to get to a healthy place where we can tackle all of these current pressing issues. And I think part of the problem is, so many issues are pressing. Like there's an urgency to getting the world to become a better place.
Mary: Yeah. Where to begin?
David: Yeah, like the world is on fire, literally, when we were recording in September in Denver, right? So we’ve got work to do that's all important, but there's urgency to it. And, you know, that is so much of the heart of the third place is creating this safe place where we can actually talk with each other, where we can work together, to figure this all out. And I think for me, like, one of the things that I've leaned into as a personal truth for several years now is, you know, I'm pretty opinionated. I come to the table with strong thoughts and opinions around some of these hard conversations. But something happened in my thinking several years ago, where I realized my perspective in all of those opinions was one in seven billion. So to be truly human, and to embrace this human experience is to recognize that I only have a one seven billionth perspective. My opinions can be strong. I believe my opinion to be right of course, otherwise, I would change them.
And, it's not that it's not okay to have strong opinions. I think that that's really good and healthy. But when you can come to the table, and also realize that while you have your strong opinions, they are from such a limited perspective, I think that that's the kind of thing that can bring safety to a conversation. So, the bottom line for me is that perspective and that line of thinking is what opened my mind to begin to be curious.
Mary: Yeah. I remember when you first told me you were like, you know, just the recognition that our perspectives are limited. And, you mentioned this whole I'm one in seventh billionth people phrase that you just said. One of the first things I think that finally when we were like, okay, let's dissect this a little bit like what does it mean okay, yes, you got to a curious place as a result. But first, you had to experience the humility that ensues in recognizing that you're just one in seven billion, like, you're not that special.
David: Right.
Mary: I mean as shitty as that sounds like you're not that special.
David: Right. And I don't have to be right. Like it's okay.
Mary: Right. Right. You're not always right. Yeah, I think it's like we're so trained or accustomed to being successful, is sans humility. So it's like, coming from this ego place that like being really well equipped and capable, means that you probably have established a strong sense of self. And, you have established a strong perspective and some truths and other things that really empower your way of thinking and your way of being. And, once you come to the sort of opposite end of the spectrum, which is that you are more limited and that you are just one of so many, that is an experience in humility and being quite humbled.
David: Well, I love how you brought up success, too, because, again, my one in seven billionth perspective of success and our culture's definition of success is going to be very different than so many other cultures around the world. You know, I grew up thinking that success was being completely independent. I no longer think that that's healthy. I don't have to lean on anyone to support me I can do it all by myself. I think that that's there's a lot of unhealth in that idea. I learned that, you know, it's having a white picket fence with two cars and three kids in the house in suburbia was the American dream. And it's not. Like maybe for some sure. But, you know, there are so many American dreams and there are therefore, so many definitions of success. So, you know, even our definitions of success, and what we think is successful is very different than each other. My personal definitions of success, lie much more around an impact that I might be able to have with other people around me than it does anything with money.
Mary: Hmm. Well, and that makes me think of that book, ‘It’s the Manager by Jim Clifton’, that there's this old world versus new world. So I think that you're probably bridging the gap between the old world versus new world people that are seeking purpose and value in work beyond financial gain. It’s less of like taking a paycheck home so that you can be able to support your family and more of like, man, this really has to pull up my heartstrings. And I have to feel like I'm making a change in the world in order to sustain the energy output that I want to give. And so, it is just how we measure success, I think is evolving all of the time. And then, as we come to the realization of that humility that our perception of success may be completely alternative to someone else’s, that opens up the world of curiosity, that I think is the breath of fresh air that we talk about on the third place. That is that childlike thing that people want to embrace.
We were talking about curiosity with our social media marketing assistant, her name's Betta just a shout out to her. She's incredible. But she was telling me that this work that she's doing right now at the Artists Way, was one of the first times since being a child that she realized that all she was craving or missing was the ability to be curious again. And that conditioning over time has just made her feel like curiosity wasn't encouraged because curiosity is kind of synonymous or whether that's justified or not with taking risks. And, that feels like you're putting yourself in harm's way.
David: Mm-hmm. Well, and I think that you know, curiosity can sometimes put yourself in harm's way. But also-
Mary: Curiosity killed the cat.
David: Yeah, right. But I think the opposite is more often true. Where curiosity is an expansion of the way that we think, it's an expansion into a better understanding of humanity. It's an expansion of thought. I read an article over the weekend, you know, so because we're still in this heightened political climate, you know, we kind of get into our own tribes. And, you're right, and I'm wrong. And, for me, like I grew up, conservative Republican and right now, I'm very much on the other side of that spectrum. But it began with this curiousness, right? Well, it began with my value systems. It began with questioning, like, why does this side say it's the right thing and why does the other side just because it's not this way, the other side is just wrong? Really? Or is it that there's some truth in what you represent, and there's some truth in the other side, and what they represent?
So I was reading this article over the weekend and it was talking about our political climate, and like, you know, where do we heal what is going on? And, just this one stat showed up on the page, was when you get to just issues before they're politicized, that Americans agree 75 to 80% of the time in all these issues. But the minute a side, picks a position, Republican or Democrat, then all sudden, it's like, oh, well, that’s side is wrong. You know, and you fall to your camp, more than your own thought process of that particular issue. And honestly, that makes me incredibly sad.
Mary: Yeah. I immediately felt discouraged. Not only was I shocked by that, but not shocked at the same time. It just shows that like, once the build-up is there or the construct is there, then suddenly you're questioning yourself and or not questioning and you just sort of like fall in line, whatever you think is supposed to be in line.
David: Right. But part of that though, is the curiosity of asking the question why. And digging a little bit deeper than anything that Twitter could ever say, or anything that this service level could say, I think is just so important, like even just the critical thinking elements. And you know, so how do we get back to that place? And, you know, I didn't transform my political ideology overnight. It was a journey. And it was a series of questions to ask why, to ask why, to ask why, like asking question to go just a little bit deeper to try to get what's the thing underneath the thing that we're talking about. And that curiosity led me to a safe place. It wasn't dangerous. It was, in fact, uncovering the truth. Oh, I didn't know that, right?
So the curiosity allowed me to take one step forward, or just one step into digging into something. And then it was safe so then that allowed me to take the next step and the next step. And I think that that's the thing, that's the third place. So you might have a very different perspective than I do about something, I have a different perspective. Can we each just put that on the table and create the safety? And can we even just not necessarily take a step forward to one another, but just to open our mindset to curiosity to say, you know, I want to know what your perspective is? Help me understand why you have this perspective. What were your life's experiences that led you to that perspective? And the experiences are really what form our opinions more than anything else that we have?
Mary: Yeah, I mean, I think what you just said was so powerful. So, I'm just sitting with that for a minute. But I also, in thinking about that, it can be really hard to say that you want to be curious versus actually being curious. You know, I typically walk into a conversation with a beginner's mind, right? We talked about beginner's mind in one of our past episodes. And it's a Buddhist concept where, you know, you kind of just bring a fresh perspective to any situation. And, then I find myself, like, still getting triggered or still feeling like, even if I'm curious, and I have this beginner's mind that putting in action this curiosity is way harder than coming with that in the forefront.
So, you know, what I have to do in these situations is I have to repeatedly remind myself that by being a curious person, you know, what I've learned is it actually is a less aggressive approach. And so that actually is peace-giving to me. And, it tends to be you know, those that are really curious, have some of the strongest relationships that I've learned. And they also are some of the most genius people. So, it's three things that like, helped me anchor myself when I'm recognizing that I'm still feeling triggered, even if I've walked in with an intention of being very curious. And then I remind myself, like, well, what do the most curious people have? It's usually stronger relationships because of less aggression. A stronger aptitude because they're able to access more information through that, and just greater intimacy as a result.
David: Yeah. Well, and hearing you talk about that makes me think, like, how important it is to pair it with that humility, right? Because, you know, there's there almost can be like this pretentiousness of oh, really tell me more? Like, tell me your perspective versus a genuine curiosity around okay, I don't understand this but I want to know, your perspective. And again, kind of going back to that, I'm going to have my opinion, but I might be wrong. So you know, show me like, show me your perspective. I think that curiosity really does go well with that.
Mary: I think a lot of the experience that many of us have been having is more of that like, oh, right, well, then tell me more. Like, sort of, how can you back your statement that is what I will deem as credible? Rather than like truly curious around why would you think that way, and what makes you feel like you're coming from a place that is maybe a little bit fear-based or compassion-based. Whatever it is, it can provide you more context. Like what if we could just like to think that we're sort of courting a new friendship, even if it's our lifelong friend, or starting a new romance, even if we've been married for 10 years?
That's what I always try to, like, dip my toe into is, what if I had to make the best impression of myself? The best impression of myself is usually like a super curious one. You know, when I'm at a job interview, I come with questions. So, I want to bring myself to that place, even if a 10 –year-long or 20-year- long friendship or relationship has told me to bring a whole different version of myself. How can I tap into that curious space?
David: In the process of trying to go deeper and trying to really make lots of big changes, you know, we've talked about often how we want to do it in bite-sized steps. And I do think that that curious-minded idea and mentality is a great mini tool that we can all do something. You know, we can all implement right away with a variety of relationships. It makes me think of you know, not in the relationship context, but it makes me think of trying anything new. You know, I don't know maybe the first time that you have a new kind of food. Like, it's a little bit scary. Oh, I have one. Today, I ate rabbit for the first time.
Mary: Oh, my God. Oh, man.
David: And I didn't want to.
Mary: What was it? Rabbit stew?
David: It was rabbit stew. One of our employees does hunting and he was really excited. And he really wants to make for everybody squirrel potpie soon and I'm like, oh, no. But I was curious.
Mary: The hunters in Colorado in my backyard are like, there are other things you can hunt.
David: Yeah. Hey, the hunters in Ohio are the same way, too. But you know, I mean, it tasted like chicken.
Mary: So you tried it?
David: So I tried it.
Mary: And it tastes like chicken. But what was your experience of going to try it? I mean, I know you as a curious person. So I feel like you probably were, like, stoked on it and really curious, and maybe a tiny bit hesitant, but like, what was the worst? You know, actually, this brings me to something that really helps me, which is I tend to ask myself, what's the worst-case scenario? And I have to ask myself that in order to really, fully bring my vulnerable self because I think being curious, like we talked about it's humility, it’s vulnerability. Once I go to the place of like, what is the point of no return sort of feeling, then that helps soften the rest of the potentials that could come up. Because ultimately, I haven't had an experience maybe except for one that has been like, worst-case scenario, when I've brought my curious self.
David: Yeah, I think that that's a really great point. Because often, not always, but often when we play out the worst-case scenario, it's really not that bad.
Mary: Because you could have gotten sick, I guess, from the rabbit, or-
David: Right. Well I had everybody else try it first. No, I’m just kidding.
Mary: Are you kidding?
David: I did have it last just because I worked through lunch and I ate lunch at two o’clock.
Mary: Right, right.
David: That might have been on purpose. I don't know. You know, I'm thinking of more like, like outdoor sports. You know, there was the first time that I tried whitewater rafting, and it was scary, but then it wasn't scary and it was amazing. And then, I convinced all my friends to do it with me. And then I got into kayaking, and it was scary at first and then, you know? So without question, like that kind of thing a worst-case scenario is pretty bad. You can really hurt yourself or die. But, you know, it's not like, you go dive into the deep end of the pool right away? Or if you do, you certainly don't do it without lifeguards, right? So you put things in place.
And I think the curious thing, part of it is like you said, what is really the fear here? More often than not that the worst-case scenario is not that bad. It's recoverable. You know, so as you learn new skills, like the reason why I kept going deeper and deeper and deeper into whitewater sport, is because I did one step at a time, and it was a little bit more fun and a little bit more fun, a little bit more fun. And my skill set increase all along the way.
Mary: I think that we've just been in space, we're actually the worst-case scenario is a loss of relationship, maybe we are risking relationships being affected or not. And, you know, maybe a year ago when there weren't so many adversities sort of brought to our attention, which required all of us to sort of establish or set a place in the sand and like, say, like, this is my stance. That's brought up a lot of division. And so, I see it as you know, in playing out the worst-case scenario, there's one of two ways that I sort of see it going. You can be very curious and be very vulnerable and that that gives you the best chance at having a very compassionate conversation that can be productive. Or I see it as that you're being very curious or maybe not, maybe that's harder. But there's vulnerability no matter what because you're entering into a conversation that's tough and awkward and uncomfortable. And, maybe what it reveals to you is that that relationship isn't a safe space.
And so my sort of encouragement of remaining curious is that regardless, you walk away with data. And, it tells you whether or not the relationships that you have in your life right now are safe or not safe. And that you're actually giving the opportunity to exude safety to someone else by coming with a curious and approach that is from a humble space. So, I see that as one of my mantras, this will be my mantra for the rest of my life. And now my toddler is using this on me is that, you know, we're just doing the best that we can. And, you know, he was having a meltdown the other day, and he literally looked at me, and he said, “I'm just doing the best that I can.” And that totally broke down my armor. And that's been my intention behind the saying of I'm doing the best that I can and recognizing that in other people.
And that's a curious space. It's a very humbling, kind, compassionate, accepting space that disarms most people. And I hope that we can continue to dip our toe in that even though I know that if we do think about what's the worst-case scenario, it does feel like there's a lot to lose. Because losing friendships and losing relationships and losing connections, like, we've already lost so much connection. So the risk is there. Curiosity, killing the cat feels very real. It's very visceral. But the work in the third place is to challenge that and to keep having the awkward conversations, and to keep being curious, and to keep tapping into humility.
David: Yeah, yeah. It reminds me of just what you were talking about the whole generous perspective, which came up last week with Laura too just, you know, why is someone doing that and giving them the benefit of the doubt that they've just had a really bad day? Or all of those things, right, that could come with that. And the other side of the risk is the reward, like, the depth of relationship, the depth of widening your circle by being curious, the depth of learning new cultures or trying something new you know, we're we are talking about relationships. But really expanding your mind into other experiences is, is really beautiful.
Mary: Yeah. And it's exciting. I mean, I think coming from this perspective is not dull, it's not still it's not stagnant. I think, you know, there's a lot of things in our life that are constant and are pretty stable and secure. And I just truly believe because I've experienced this, that by being in this mind state, that things have more texture, and they're way more palatable, even if it's rabbit stew. It combats this mundane experience. You know, we have enough mundane right now. We’re all at home still, you know, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But curiosity really is, at its core, the most basic practice of mindfulness.
David: Yeah. That's a great, a great way to say it. So we have a beginner's mind, we have kind of playing out your fears, we have seeing the upside and kind of the positive. When you think about being curious, so like, how? So for someone that maybe is learning for the first time and that would be the goal. If you're someone who's curious or becoming curious, like, you know, who around you is also being curious. And let's step into that too, and even share this episode and this podcast with people that are learning to be curious. So super practical, like, what are the things that we can do to increase our curiosity thoughts?
Mary: Well, first, I say recognize when you're feeling like, you know, ooh, that's something I'm going to avoid. Like, sometimes I spend so much of my day interacting with people, even if it's virtual, that I find myself becoming recluse at the end of the day, and that's when a lot of my neighbors like want to go out and connect. And I noticed that there's some tension there where I'm like, okay, like, I'm feeling like I want to sort of stay closed off. And that's not to say that boundaries aren't good and that maybe that's probably just a healthy way of saying I'm securing my energy to sustain it. But other times it might be a sign to me to be like, oh, like, what about that feels scary or threatening to you and how can you step outside of your comfort zone? And that act in itself is actually an act of being curious.
And then, the next thing like if you were to take it to the next level, let's say I'm outside, I'm conversing with my neighbors, a big act of curiosity, which is so basic, and this is probably going to sound, like obvious to many people is just to simply ask questions to prompt topics. One of the research studies that I read on curiosity, even said that if you just start a sentence with like, I don't know why I'm saying this, or I don't know why I'm sharing this. Or it's kind of like an I don't know, thing like, I don't know where this is coming from but I'm just going to say it or I'm just going to put it out there becomes like a disarming topic, and can prompt a conversation that maybe would have not ever come up naturally, to begin with.
David: You know, one of the other things that prompts me with that just the whole, I don't know, perspective is one of the things that's helped me with curiosity is to be okay with the tension of at the end of this conversation, I still might not know. There are lots of things that I don't know.
Mary: No agenda.
David: No agenda, just curiosity, and not necessarily a conclusion either.
Mary: Yeah.
David: Like with the gender gap, I don't know how to solve the problem. And there's a lot of intricate, delicate layers to that problem. Why is it that women feel this burden more than men about choosing a career and being a stay-at-home mom? Certainly there are stay-at-home dads out there, but that's a part of the conversation of gender gap, education is a part of the conversation of the gender gap. So there are all these layers, and I don't know what to do to fix those. And that's okay. So like the tension of I don't know, and I still might not know, at the end of the conversation, I think it's really healthy.
Mary: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that really all we're sort of like walking away with through this conversation is that you know, first humility then curiosity. And that through that process, hopefully, we can continue to create safe spaces for ourselves and for others so that we can have these conversations because like we said, the world is on fire. There's plenty to talk about. There’s enough awkwardness to go around. And, we're just trying to make that uncomfortable space a little bit more comfortable.
David: Well, and I can tell you, our podcasts, we're going to remain curious. You know, some of the topics that we have coming up, I don't know anything about and that's okay. Like, actually, Mary and I, we've been talking about when we don't know anything about a topic or when it seems like whoa that was a really uncomfortable conversation, that's kind of our green light. I guess that means we should talk about it. So you can trust that we are going to stay curious ourselves, and we'll do our best to kind of lead some of those awkward conversations with you.
Mary: Yeah, and be an example to it. So, leave you guys with this. In the words of Albert Einstein, “The important thing is to not stop questioning. Never lose a holy curiosity.” Be well.
