Ep 26 - New Year, Know You! Series - Awakening Your Rare Breed Within, with Sunny Bonnell
Have you ever been told that you need to change in order to succeed? These external voices can come from childhood or in your career, and our own voice is either silenced or awakened.
For those who dare to be different in a sea of sameness, Sunny Bonnell joins us and offers insights on how to navigate your own notorious personality traits which can lead to incredible breakthroughs and triumphs in business and in life.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : We invite you into the Third Place.
David : Well, Today is a big day. We have Joe Biden and Kamala Harris being sworn in to the oath of office as president and vice president. And we have a call from both sides for healing and unity, and surely hope that that is true. And that's authentic and that we really can begin that work. And I know for Mary and I, we surely hope that a lot of the podcasts and the work that we're doing can help lead us towards that path of unity and better communication and really just learning how to love each other again.
Mary : Yeah, I think the one thing that keeps coming up for me at this time is that if we disagree, because so many of us do, can we maintain one thing and that one thing being can we remain curious?
David : Yeah. We're excited to continue this series New Year No, you so much of the work of being curious and creating that safe space for deeper dialogue is to do the internal work, taking deep dives of how we process information, how we learn information and perceive the world. And today we'll continue that conversation with an interview from Sonny Bonnell co-author of the book, Rare Breed.
Mary : In December, we did a giveaway on Good grief. And the response that we got was so great that we decided we would do another one. So this month, we are doing a giveaway in honor of getting to know ourselves again, as last year was really revealing. It's likely that many of us went through a ton of adversities in 2020 and you may have been reintroduced to parts of yourself that you hadn't met before or hadn't faced in some time. So in that spirit in the spirit of New Year know you, this giveaway is valued at $350 and includes an enneagram online course from Nicole Seawell, our guest last week, the founder of sailors sweet life, access to official Myers Briggs test and a deep dive with expert Laura Jackson, who you'll hear from next week. A copy of the book Rare Breed a guide to success for the defiant, dangerous and different written by Ashley Hans Berger and our guest today Sunny and a journal actually from my brand Five Element that will help you to sort of bring all of this together and process it in one place. To learn a little bit more about this, go to our Instagram @thirdplacepodcast. Follow each of our partners and make sure to tag someone that emulates knowing their selves.
David : Alright, so Sunny Bonnell and Ashley Hans Berger are authors of the groundbreaking business career book Rare Breed a guide to success for the defiant, dangerous and different. Sonny and Ashley have earned their way to the frontlines of a workplace revolution and have spent their career devoted to building up people with the drive and courage to demand more of themselves, their careers and their companies. They've worked with the world's most visionary leaders and ambitious companies to break the status quo, including Google, Hershey's, USA Today and 20th Century Fox. Their breakout book recognizes and examines a new kind of leader, the Rare Breed, those who dare to be different in a sea of sameness, and offers a guide to navigating your own notorious personality traits that can lead to incredible breakthroughs and triumphs in business and in life.
Mary : Well, welcome Sunny, wondering if for our listeners you can start with you know, what is rare breed and who are you?
Sunny : So we started with a curious question. What if you could take the parts of yourself that other people criticize traits that are called defiant, dangerous, different essentially traits that are counterintuitive to your success, right and turn them into your selling points. And so really, what you're referring to is this phrase Rare Breed which is the title of our book, Rare Breed a guide to success for the defiant, dangerous and different. Rare Breed is really an unconventional business book, personal success book. It's designed to help you not only think like a rare breed, develop sort of this rare breed mindset, which is based on these seven unconventional traits that we've identified are the source of differentiation and power and business in life. But also, it's to help you understand what a rare breed is, why they move the world forward, and how do you identify or know if you are one, and what you can do to use those traits, those seven traits to your advantage, if that makes sense. And so really what we have sort of identified, I think, throughout our decade of really guiding leadership teams over the last 15 years, we've worked with entrepreneurs, visionary leaders, ambitious CEOs, at our leadership and brand agency motto, and what we really witnessed over the past decade was just an alarming lack of acceptance for unique people and quote, unquote, crazy ideas that don't really fit the mold. And so we responded to that earlier question, and also to this observation with the book, rare breed to sort of help those who had felt others or outlierd or sort of misfits and perhaps could not hear their own voice. We wanted to give them an idea of that, no, you are not flawed. And yes, you can succeed on your own terms. And then you would ask the question a little bit about me. Well, I am one half of a partnership. My partner Ashley Hans Berger, and I are the co -founders of Motto, which is a brand and leadership agency that works with all types of ambitious CEOs, leaders, teams, to help them align around a big idea and also sort of identify what is that standout quality that they have, and bring that forward into the brands that we help them build?
David : Yeah, cool. I love that. Because I've lived by a life philosophy for a long time that there is no such thing as normal. If you ever do meet someone who's normal. They're the ones who are weird, because there's just the even call out and recognize that, you know, there's these unique qualities among us. And there are these rare breeds of people that really just have such gifts to bring. Do you have that kind of personal story too, where you were considered the outcast or outlier but you had this beautiful gift to bring?
Sunny : Oh, sure. I mean, from a very young age, I was a little bit of a wild card. And I think this starts early in our development, right as children, I think this goes back to the very beginning of us being born, you know, some of the very first eyes that we ever look into is the eyes of our parents, right. And they have hopes and dreams for us. For a life we haven't even lived yet. And I think we're over time conditioned. This is really deeply rooted in our psychology. And I think over time, we just become sort of docile, you know, we sort of grind down our prickly points and sometimes start not to question and we lose a little bit of that, perhaps personality that we had at a very young age. I was quite a rebel myself. At third grade, I think I was breakdancing on the front lawn of the middle school. And my mom was just like, I don't even know what to do with you right now. But, you know, I showed signs of entrepreneurial tendencies very young. I didn't, I never did things that were considered kind of normal, I was always breaking out of the mold. I was always surprising people, I was always doing things that were a little bit, you know, out of line in terms of just not in the lane. And I think that, you know, what I think was favorable for me, though, is that I had two parents who sort of eventually just said, Well, if you can't beat her, let's join her. And they began to celebrate that. They saw that in me at a very young age. And they were like, well, this is who she is. And instead of trying to beat it out of me, or try to steer me in different ways. They really encouraged me to be all of who I am. And I think that was really special. But for so many, and I think why we wrote the book, was this actually ties back to our origin story as a company. So Ashley and I have grown up together, went to college together in our early 20s just shy of our degrees, dropped out of college with like $250 short name and decided that we were going to start some branding agency with no prior business experience and no prior branding experience. I was doing a little bit of graphic design on the side I was going to become a veterinarian. That was the track I was going to go down. She was attending journalism school and wanted to be an English major, wanted to be a writer. And so we both kind of had the journey, like we're going this way, right. But I had this wild idea that, I was designing on the side, just as a hobby, just sort of a side hustle, a passion, and decided to abandon all of that to start this company. And we're, again, female, right? young women start this company, in a very conservative town, there's probably three or four established players, right? In our industry, all male owned companies, primarily, I think, still, to this day, we're only 0.1% of all agencies owned by women. So again, such an outlier. And here we come, right, we're gonna start this agency, we don't think anybody's doing it right. And we're just gonna do it differently. And the first year and a half of our business, everyone said, we were going to fail, we were too young, too broke, too inexperienced to succeed. And over time, we began to believe that perhaps they were right. Even though we knew that there was a gift, and there was something to say, and there wasn't just something to sell. And we believe that we could have a point of view and that we thought that we could lead our clients in a very different direction than they were going. We still were met with a tremendous amount of resistance and adoption to our ideas and to us. And I think that we began to believe that perhaps the doubters were right, and so we're probably a year and a half into business. And we have this moment where we're like, you know, what, like, we're not cut out for entrepreneurship, like, we should just, what are we doing? Right? We were broke, we're sleeping in our office where we literally have no clients, like, what did we think we were doing right to try to do this. And we had this pivotal conversation with my dad, who is also entrepreneurial, started in a very similar situation with no money and no education, like came from a coal mining camp. His dad could not read or write, you know, he just grew up a little bit hard. And he had started his company, and I've watched him become a successful entrepreneur. So here, I was kind of at his feet saying, I'm failing. And he says, Well, you two are a rare breed, like, of course, nobody's gonna get you, this is who you are. You need to succeed because of who you are, not despite who you are. And it was kind of the aha moment, I think, for us and just sort of saying, well, like, of course, nobody gets us like, of course, this is we're going to be met with resistance, like, we're trying to change this conversation. And we're trying to do it as two young females in a conservative town, where we've basically been trying to be ran out of, because, you know, it's competitive. You know, in our industry, it's like I, we were, we were, we didn't know it at the time, but I think we were a threat because we were a little bit rogue. And they just didn't like it. And they were like, I don't know who you think you are. But we've got this town on lockdown. You're not going to come in and try to take our business, you know, so. And we didn't see it that way. We just saw it as like, isn't there enough for everyone? You know, we didn't really think about it that way. But anyway, that conversation was really pivotal to changing the trajectory of our business and the way we saw it. And what's really interesting about Rare Breed as a concept is, we were given that, that that phrase in 2007, I think we were about two years into business, we started our company in 2005. So early 2007, my dad gives us this phrase, and we put a pin in it and don't write about it until 2019.
David : Talk about perfect timing for I think our whole country as a whole though, like, here we are in this moment where there's so much pushback for the establishment and we need these minority voices to step up and lead us so
Sunny : Absolutely. I mean, you know, by simple definition, a rare breed is someone who is unordinary among the kind, they're going to stand out against the herd, they're going to look the status quo in the eye, they're going to punch it with brass knuckles. They're the people that you say, you can't do it. And the rare breed says, Oh, really hold my drink, right? They're kind of in that mindset. And even though the world is trying to stop them, they still think, act and communicate this way. And they move through the world as such, and I really do believe that they move the world forward, especially right now. Right, where now what's happened with rare breed that I think is really exciting, is we're now going into companies. You know, again, this is a book we wrote in 2019. It's now started to kind of take off. But the mindset of rare breed is actually bigger than the book itself. So right now we're being brought into companies Big, big global companies. And they're saying, can you teach us not only how to think with a rare breed mindset, but can you also help us hire for it? Can you also help us seek out talent that may be sort of meandering around our virtual halls now? But can you help us find out who these people are? And not only just understand them, but can we celebrate them, and can we make them part of our competitive edge. So it's now become a conversation around diversity, inclusion, and also making rare breeds your secret weapon, which is unheard of, you know, normally, they're cast out, normally, they're fired. Normally, they just end up getting so defeated, that they leave and start their own thing. But if you can keep them, and you can identify them, and you can also bring them into your world and make them part of your competitive drivers, you end up having something powerful within your innovation teams, and it's because of rare breeds. Not despite them.
Mary : I just resonate with this so much, because over the course of my early career, I think back to the reasons why I ultimately left was because myself as a rare breed, you know, we'll get into the types, I can't wait for you to share the seven types. But I am an emotional one. And when I was managing, I was only one of two women that were leading or managing departments within an independent grocery store. And I remember the HR director told me because I approached it in such an empathic way, I did it very much in a way against the rest of my peers. She said, you're never going to make it as a manager, she said, you're too emotional, you're too connected, you're all of the things. And that actually gave me fuel to be like, well, that's actually not true. But I can imagine that it could do the opposite. And it would end up you know, you'd end up parting ways on many occasions, probably too prematurely. For me, it just was a slow death of each place that didn't celebrate, like you were saying, my emotional approach to leading teams of over 100 people, but I also saw the most success with that too, but I was totally a rare breed. And I sure do hope that, through this work, I can see you bringing light to that. And I'd love to hear about the types so that people can start to understand those as I just threw out the name emotional as well.
Sunny : Yeah, yeah. So there's seven traits. What's interesting about them is they are as equally powerful as they are perilous. So they have a dark side. And we chose them specifically because they are a vice and virtue. So the seven are rebellious, audacious, obsessed, weird, hot blooded, hypnotic, and emotional. And all of these traits have been societly frowned upon, you know, you should not be these things in order to succeed, you know, and to demonstrate how dark they can be. It's sort of like rebellious has the power to move mountains right. But only if you understand or know what you're rebelling against. A lot of rebels just don't have a cause. Audacity, it can make you this sort of pathetic visionary, unless it's going to spiral into reckless hubris, which it often does for many people, they end up drinking their own Kool Aid. Obsessed, you know, they, you're able to create these detailed masterpieces, or you will doom yourself to some type of failure, because you are chasing this ideal of perfection. You're hot blooded, this is where you bring an intensity and fire. This goes far beyond passion. This is something where you are so intense, so hot for the room, that he can often lead to destructive tendencies, you know, it borders on this sort of fire and fury that you can sometimes use in your favor, and also can lead to destruction and then weird, it makes you unique, but often very misunderstood. And to your point, emotional, it really allows you to feel things very deeply, you operate on a very different frequency. But it can also lead to being overly sensitized, or perhaps even misreading the room and you're kind of too in your feelings to where you're not able to separate that from reality. So there's again, this sort of duality to each one of these and we go into great depth about them within the book.
Mary : And I remember when we first got introduced to your work. You had some historical examples of some of these traits that I thought were fascinating. Do any come to mind that are your favorite to share?
Sunny : Well, if you think about, the first story that we've probably all heard, right, that first act of rebellion is when Eve took the first rebellious bite of the apple, you know, in folklore, she started it all right, we blame Eve for all of this. But you know, Joan of Arc was a rare breed, Rosa Parks was a rare breed. You know, Elan Musk, obviously trying to put people on Mars, like how more audacious can you get? Lady Gaga, Greta Thun Berg, you know, all of these individuals are rare breeds, and they really live to their own beat. And they're very much indistinguishable from their calling. And you see them stand out in history, because they've often move the world forward in very different ways. But it's true that there are so many rare breeds that you don't know the name of, you know, they don't have to be famous in order to be effective or efficient, or to even be a rare breed. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions is you have to be, it's elitist in some way, right. You can only be a rare breed if you're these things. But I've known many, many people in my life that are not a household name, but are in 1,000%, a rare breed in their life and work and career and certainly have great influence on those they surround themselves with.
David : Yeah, and I mean, the examples that you just listed are people that we kind of look up to as positive leaders, but I'm sure that there's the negative as well of the rare breeds that are not those that are necessarily making the world a better place.
Sunny : Oh, yeah, some of I think our most gifted or raters throughout time have also been some of the most evil, you know, they've been the most hypnotic. I mean, I can think of the political landscape right now. It's like a real sort of indication of what that looks like. But I think the difference between someone who's a rare breed and who's not is the point of using those forces for good, and being able to track what your intentions are. If you are rebel, and you don't have a cause, and you're just trying to be destructive, of course, like, do we want those people in our companies? No, like, do we want them at our table? No, you want someone who's a rebel, but for as a force for good, you know, and that's why it's so important that you, you know, that distinction, because there are people in companies who exhibit these traits who end up being extremely disruptive and the worst way possible. So we're not encouraging that. Just because you're a ruckus maker means that you're an effective rare breed, or that you should even be at the table. That's not at all what we're getting at. What we're getting at is that a lot of these people are often misunderstood. They're often underestimated, and they're often shut out. And there isn't a lot of trying to make those people belong, right. And I think it's a it's a matter of, sometimes when we think of diversity inclusion, we're like, well, you know, let's just check mark that the color, we've got these people of color in our leadership team or within our organization, but I think we're missing some really, really important people who don't necessarily check those boxes, either, you know, and they almost become like, where you're now sort of typecasting in a different way. Because then you're like, well, if they look this way, then then we should have them here. But it's a double edged sword. And so what I think we're seeing reverie do is be able to change the conversation. And we want to change the conversation in a positive way.
David : Yeah, a couple years ago, we added someone to our team who was on the autism spectrum. And there certainly were some hurdles about that, and some things that we all were learning through and working through. But he told us, it was the first time in his life journey. And he was a younger kid that it was something that he could embrace like it was celebrated within the team. And he brought a unique perspective and unique gifts to the team. And I mean, I think there were just such beauty in that, like, it kind of reminds me, for a lot of people who stutter. Many of them, especially years ago, were left handed that were forced to learn how to be right handed. Right. So at one point, left handed was this rare breed example that was looked down upon and we tried to correct it all. And that group of people often would stutter because of it. So it's like there's this new awakening for something that's being rare to be embraced. And it's not a checkbox, like you said, but it is truly what gift do they have and what perspective they have. That is just not on the team and how do we, how do we embrace it in a way that does bring that positive influence?
Sunny : Yeah. Because the Harvard Business Review, you know, they published a study a while back that said that something crazy like 10% of people work in companies that encourage nonconformity. I mean, 10%, that's, that's bananas to me. And so what that sends a loud and clear message is that people are leaving their real selves behind at the door. And as leaders, we have to beg the question, how many great ideas, how many great minds, how much innovation are we missing out on because we punish those who are even trying, and how many people walk out of jobs, they don't feel connected to how many people are walking out of your doors, because they don't feel seen? Or there's a standard type that has to get hired? How many people do we meet that say, I love my job? It's, it's really remarkable. How many people just feel unsatisfied. And I think as leaders, we're literally silencing and awaking people at so many different points, we don't even realize it, you know, some of that is in our, you know, control. In other words, when you have that kind of power and influence, what do you do with it? You know, and how are you helping encourage people to grow? You know, no one's gonna come into your office perfect. Like, we're humans, we're messy. Leadership is hard. We barely know what to do with ourselves, let alone someone else. But what this is telling me though, and why I think rare breed has received such a response is that suicidally, we need to be better, we need to better own who we are. But in turn, we need to allow our organizations and educate our organizations to create a culture of acceptance, so that you can allow people to reach their full potential, you know, it should not be where you go to get diminished, you know, and that your ideas can't be realized. And you feel frustrated, because you are just a number. I talked to somebody the other day, who said that they had never even had lunch with their boss. And he had worked there for like, a year and a half. Like, there's no excuse for that.
Mary : I keep thinking of like the the middle child syndrome, as we're talking Where, where, when, you know, so much of that syndrome comes from that you're not being seen, like we've said, and so you're not being celebrated, or there's just an absence of you being you're in the periphery. You're not in someone's focus or view and, and to me, what that does is that creates rebellion, right? And then it's like, if someone if a rare breed goes undiagnosed or doesn't feel seen or isn't celebrated, then I would imagine that that rare breed would manifest itself in the vise traits more than in the virtue side, because I think that's just human nature.
Sunny : Mm hmm. No, it's a very wonderful observation. We have this coin that we give to people that, that literally one side says vice and the other one says a virtue, and you can kind of carry it around with you and a lot of people have told us that they would they have it in their pocket, they're like, it reminds me of when I'm veering into that dark territory, because that borderland is very indistinct. I mean, sometimes even somebody who wrote about rare breed, right, I consider myself one and sometimes I'm like, what side of this? Am I eally employing right now you know what, and that self awareness is really, really important. A great example of this is my niece is 22 and in college, and I think she's a real rare breed. But she, you know, made some decisions where she was like, not, in my opinion, you know, I was like, No, you shouldn't do that in college. Like, you should go down that path, you know, and, and then she was like, didn't you write the book on this? And I was like, Yes, right.
David : we can relate to that. We keep like, hey we're having a podcast about how to have healthy dialogue.
Mary : And then you're in a fight with your..
Sunny : That's so funny. No, it's so true. And I think it's just the nature of this topic, you know, and then I really remembered like, I need to encourage her to be her full self and really be who she is and let her you know, that's what we do is you know, I think it was like a daughter, but like, you don't realize how those words how your dissatisfaction and someone or you're doubting someone like it stays with them. And we do it all day long. We do it to people all day long, we don't even realize we're doing it. And I have seen the book really changed the way that other people are leaving their companies, you know, I've had people reach out to me and tell me, they've made crazy life decisions because of reading rare breed, they've chosen paths that maybe they'd been on for 40 years, and they're just like, nope, no more, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, this was never where my heart was at. And then they go and chase that crazy dream that they've had. And to be able to spark a little bit of that excitement and joy in people is pretty powerful. And also to have a say, in this conversation, you know, as somebody who felt, at times, not seen, not by my family, per se, but more so from my colleagues and friends. And you know, even as I started my company, and still to this day, I encounter it as a female own business. You know, I would like to say that it's different, but it's not. I've been on calls before where I'm just like, this is not, you should not be speaking to me in this way, and you just feel like, you have to make a decision at that moment, like, do I tolerate this, like, Am I am I? Am I looking the other way? Or am I actually like, you know, supporting this type of behavior towards women in the workplace. And so you have to make those decisions. And those are rare breed moves, like, when you don't tolerate something, you know, we have a chapter in the book about violate etiquette, sometimes you have to change the conversation, stop the conversation, because someone isn't respecting you, you know, and those are times where those rare breed sort of traits come out, and you can use them as a force for good, you can shut down people who are abusing them.
David : So that's a really great point. Because I mean, we're talking a lot about leadership. And I would love to hear what your rare breed type is, and kind of more of the personal side. But I think you brought up something really important as a leader, as you're learning the ideas of embracing rare bead, and the ideas of building into these and seeing them as strengths and things to add your team, what do you do, if you in the past have caused someone to not fully embrace their Rare Breed identity? Or even worse, like, how do you undo maybe harm that you would have caused? Because you didn't embrace that rare breed identity previously?
Sunny : Well, I think it's like people who've changed their pronouns. I think we, as a society, we're all learning, and we're trying to do better, or at least I hope we're trying to do better. And if you have made that mistake in the past, where perhaps you have unknowingly, shut somebody down then maybe there's an opportunity to make it right for the next person that you're that you're, you know, and now that you have, you're educated about it, you can begin to recognize that and others, I think, first you have to see it in yourself. And then you can recognize it and others. And I think knowing that the tendency, when somebody who comes in who is a rare breed into our organization, we tend to kind of reject, we've sort of like there's that funny feeling where you're like, oh, like, I don't know, if this one's gonna work out. And then you start to backpedal a little bit, because you're just like, okay, they're a little bit extra. It's in us, I think, to be educated and try to navigate that and make sure to look on the spectrum of is this person, just, again, falling into the negative sides of the traits? Or is this somebody that turned right on the right path with the right conditions, with the right support and with the right ability to be able to fully lean into those traits, what you can empower them to do and put them in the right roles? Sometimes, it's just that you have the right person in the wrong seat. And that's a big thing to be aware of.
David : And as you were explaining that, I'm like, Oh, yeah, and also, maybe as a leader, this is your opportunity to embrace your own rareness as a leader, because how many leaders will say, Hey, you know, what, I used to think this way, and I was wrong. Like, that's a rare trait in leadership.
Sunny : yeah, that's a great insight. Absolutely. I mean, it's really challenging, I think, for leadership teams. It's one of the reasons that we're being hired. We were already doing a lot of this work at Motto in the very beginning. And in doing a lot of leadership work very early on, we didn't realize we were doing it, but we were going into companies and because we had never worked for anybody else. I think we kind of went in with this innate curiosity to ask these really tough questions. And it really became the backbone of all the work that we do now, which is we've spent 15 years questioning the behaviors, actions and traits and cultures of the companies that we work with, so that not only can we understand who the spirit of that organization is, it always stems from the top right. And also, it often can kind of come from the bottom as well, meaning it can go all throughout the entire organization, a lot of times change actually comes from the bottom up, because people that are not at the leadership level often start to, there's muttering going on, you know, they're like, we're not happy. And so sometimes it kind of forces the leadership to say, Hey, we need to sort of reevaluate. But sometimes we're looking at the entire organizational brand and culture at the leadership level all the way through, and then how do we operationalize that brand in a positive way. But so much of our work is really helping leaders and teams truly understand what it means to have a rare breed mindset? What are those traits and things that you need to be thinking with? And how do you then recognize it within your team? And then how do you operationalize that kind of innovation thinking all throughout your organization, that's the work we've been concentrated on for the last two years, which is really cool, because we started out being a branding agency, but now we've grown into something much more significant, where the value is extremely audacious and that we're able to really change operationally, how these companies move through the world and how their brands get represented. So it's an interesting thing, but so much of it is just education. You know, we don't know what we don't know. And so if we can arm them with the right conditions to kind of think through recognizing it within the culture, it makes for real positive change to occur.
Mary : So what about the situation where a rare breed is being silenced at home, outside of the workplace where because I feel like I'm fortunate that I work in an environment and with my co-host here, and now that I feel like the most supportive of my approach to work into life. And I'm wondering, like, what if that was the case in work, but not at home? And how would you approach that conversation? I think it's amazing that you had a family that allowed you to fully express yourself in a radical way. But I would imagine that that's not the case for most, and that it would be hard to walk into the workplace without the tools at home in some capacity.
Sunny : Yeah, it's a really fantastic insight. One of the things that we do with teams is that we have them take the rare breed quiz, which is where we have everyone on the leadership team, take the quiz, so they kind of understand what their dominant trait is. And then we teach them also how to work with traits that are not the same as them. So it's kind of like a modern day Myers Briggs but in a really interesting way, because you're kind of teaching like rebels how to work with you know, impasse, and you're teaching like people who are hot blooded how to work with audacity, you know, which sometimes will clash. But if you're at home, and I think depending on the circumstances, it can, it can certainly be challenging, if you are not armed with a level of understanding that I think has to happen. An example is let's say in your case, right, you're emotional. So, let's say that your partner is somebody who's like, has audacity, you know, and they're all driven by vision, they kind of make the impossible possible. But that audacious person might often be too too much for somebody who's emotional who moves to the world as an empath, or just like we don't see eye to eye, like, you're probably a little bit more up in your feelings, the audacious person's normally like, But wait, why are you all up in your feelings, like, let's just move on, like they don't see that. And so we're often blind to the needs of others who embody some of these traits. And it's the same in the workplace, it's the same at home, it's the same in our relationships and our friendships. And so what's really interesting is we've had like friends who literally, like get groups together, and they're like, all my friends are taking the quiz, so that we can actually understand this new lens of looking at each other because what it does is it gives you the ability to have a better understanding. Because if you know that this person kind of dominantly is a little bit more of a rebellious a rebel or they're a little bit more hypnotic, and they're a little bit of a charmer, you know, you can know the dark side tendencies and you can also know the positive attributes and you can learn how to communicate better. But if you're talking about which I would zoom out to another level, which would be like this, it often happens in parents and parents of rare breed. So an interesting question that we get a lot is I'm the parent of a rare breed and you know, say they've got three kids or maybe their brother and sister is like one trait and they're a different one. We're getting a lot of questions around that which is again super interesting because we wrote it as kind of a business book. But it's turned into something much, much bigger. But we're getting questions around that, like I'm the parent of a rare breed, how do I parent them because our natural instinct, right is to as parents, to even, perhaps, you know, we don't want them to get hurt our kids to get hurt. So sometimes we'll force this methodology of like, let's steer them back into the direction that we feel like they should go in. When often what we're doing is, it goes beyond love, it starts now to become you're almost squashing out a little bit of their spirit. And it's such a careful thing. It's not a rodeo, right? It's such a delicate dance, it's like a ballet, where your words and the weight of those words, and your intention of those things can really do more harm than good. You end up kind of squashing out the spirit of somebody, because you have criticized them to the point that they don't even know what they're good at, or what they should be chasing, what dream they should go after. Because they're told that those dreams are too audacious to succeed, you know, so it's little things like that I'd be thinking about. And again, this happens at home. And it happens in our teams. And it happens as leaders, keep in mind, like we're carrying this stuff from us, right? Like, from the time we're born, we're being conditioned this way. So it also affects who we become in childhood, who we become as friends who we become as leaders, and even who we become as employees. So it's a big conversation to have. But, you know, the goal is to be more understanding and appreciative of those traits, versus trying to squash them out of them. That's really the true thesis.
Mary : Just like you I was raised very, my mom was very supportive of my sensitivities, but almost to the point of, because of that, I didn't learn boundary setting very well. A lot of my siblings, and I joke like, yes, we're all very empathic, we're all highly sensitive people, but we didn't get the flip side. And what I like about the idea of rare breeds is that it gives you that full picture that you can still encourage it, and then talk about that vise side or that side that that might need a little bit more love, so that you can feel more fully available to present it in a productive way and to bring it to the table in a way that is not it with enthusiasm and confidence and still also be able to support the flip side where that wising come out.
Sunny : Right, absolutely. As I brought it back earlier, I think that borderland between those two things are murky and indistinct and you run the risk of, of having parenting that, like, encourage you to be so much of yourself that you actually lose a sense of being kind of rational. Or fearful, or all of those are relating. Absolutely. I mean, you know, look, parenting is hard enough, you know, let alone trying to, like, get it all right. And I think sometimes, it can be extreme it can be one way or the other. And I think that's why you have a lot of unstable people in the world. You know, it's hard. Being who we are, is hard, especially in a world that doesn't understand you. And so, again, we use these terms, right, outlier, misfit, weirdo, and sometimes they have really negative connotations. And I think what Rare Breed does is reframe that conversation in a positive way. So it becomes more of a badge of honor, it becomes something you'd be proud of. But yeah, I mean, owning yourself in this way, it hurts like hell, and it's not the path of least resistance. This is really hard. And it's hard to know yourself. It's hard to love yourself. And it's hard to make all of who you are. Be proud and not just the pretty parts. And I think that's exactly what this message is. But yeah, parenting, I mean, back to your point, it's extremely difficult. And sometimes we don't always get it right. And sometimes we get it really, right. And you can see it in people who have gone on to do some pretty extraordinary things, because they had a little bit of that kick and a cuddle, right? They had tough love. But they also had the warmth, they had the love, but they also weren't overly nurtured to the point that they became incapable, and some of that can happen too. So it’s trying to find that balance.
Mary : A kick in a cuddle. I've never heard that before.
Sunny : We use it all the time. I started using it a long time ago. And now everybody's like, I'm stealing that line. I love it.
David : Well, I love the story that you shared of friends that would take the test together so that there’s a step of learning who you are, then there's a step of learning about other people. And then there's a have, you know how then everybody interacts. And again, just like that's the reason why we were so excited to bring you into the third place podcast just because that is so much of the work knowing yourself. So we can have these better conversations and, and I also think it goes back to that whole checkbox thing about the idea of a diverse team is not to check a box. But truly the idea of a diverse team is to make the team stronger and better and when you can embrace Rare Breed qualities, then then maybe we can actually change the world and make it a better place. And, you know, whether we're parents who can embrace this rare breed quality, or we see a friend who has a rare breed that we can truly build into them. I mean, I think that that's, it sounds an awful lot. Like there's just so much opportunity to do something through this lens. Mary and I have taken the test, can our listeners take that test? And, what's the first step for our listener to really engage with your work and kind of begin this journey?
Sunny : Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, we're the the founders of Motto so that's really kind of the the main place that people learn about us and the work that we're doing, but you can also take the quiz directly at rarebreedquiz.com you can obviously get the book on Amazon, Target books a million Barnes and Noble is Kindle Audible, it's everywhere books are sold. But those are two quick ways to kind of get in touch with us. And also, you can join the rare breed community on LinkedIn. So we started a community recently where anyone who's ever felt like a little bit of an oddball can kind of come in there and we'll talk to you about we're having we're starting really cool conversations about hey, I'm this at my workplace or I have a boss like this and we're starting to have really interesting conversations around all the ways in which people show up at work and also how to how to lead them you know, and then hopefully we'll have some parents jump in there to to talk about it but it's so far, it's a small community, but we're growing day by day and just adding more people to it and they're finding out about it. So that's really cool. And then one more thing you can do is check us out at actually I think you can you can see just about everything that wearemotto.com so if you go to wearemottocom, you can access the quiz, you can access more info on the book, you can also learn about places that we're speaking. And also watch our show. We have a YouTube show where we sit down with cultural provocateurs and talk to them about which vise have they wrestled forward to become a virtue. So we've sat down with people like Charlemagne, the God, John Batiste, PJ Morton from Maroon five, Gaby Dunn, best selling author. So we had some really, really interesting conversations. We put it on pause, you know, before the pandemic, but now we're doing a reboot. And so we're gonna have some really interesting folks on to kick it back off. But those are all ways that you can kind of get to know us. And then of course, we're all over social. So @weourmotto is the handle that we're at
Mary : I love that video series you have. And I love to hear that you're bringing it back, because I've watched all of them. Yeah, so I'm excited about that. I have one closing question. For our listeners, like, what is one micro thing that they could do today to either, you know, besides the quiz, to really either embrace their rare breed or someone that they know, that is?
Sunny : It's a great question. Um, well, I think the quiz is part of that. But I think it starts with depending on where you're at. So if you are at a leadership level, I think it starts with the people. You have to hire for these qualities. You know, most companies aren't going to hire the rebel or the weirdos because they make them uncomfortable, they don't fit the norm and can really be seen as difficult or too different. So they hire for safe choices. But I really believe that you should hire for them. Those are the ones that are going to help you break those boundaries. You know, when you hire, you really create a safe space for rare breed people to belong and thrive. You create a culture that doesn't look or sound or feel like anything is business as usual. I think that's one part of it. And f you are the rare breed and you are trying to navigate the world, I think you have to look for companies, they are out there, they're rare, but there are companies out there who really enjoy doing the impossible. You know, they're willing to think around those corners, they're willing to pivot after failure, like they don't hold on to the old ways of doing things. And you want to find those companies I think sometimes rare breeds try to force themselves they're literally a square peg and they're trying to find a round hole, when in fact, they just need to find a company that's more like them. Because when you find a company like that you can do some of the best work of your life. You know? Why would anybody be searching for a company where they're going to be stifled when they're going to be snuffed out, you know, where they're not going to be able to hear their own voice. You know, a lot of the advice that people hear is like, just stay in your lane. Well, I say fuck the lane, like for rare breeds there is no lane. So you know, it's about finding those opportunities where you can thrive in a career that you truly love. And in an environment that, as I said earlier, is going to create this kind of conditions to allow you to thrive. I know, this sounds radical, but like, if you are in a job where you don't feel like you are being seen, like find another job. You know, I mean, literally, like fun. There are places out there who will welcome you who are looking for you. It's just we don't spend the time to kind of interview them as much as they're interviewing us, you know, like, study their culture, learn about how they operate, figure out who's at the helm and see, like, are they doing the kind of work that you want to do? And you know, what, if it's not there, go do it yourself? Yeah. Like, nothing is stopping you. We started with no money, no background in this. And we were able to pull it off. And yet, you know, did we work long hours and spend times where we were, no food in the fridge? Like, yeah, of course, if we did all those things, but sometimes persistence and the ability to believe in yourself, it can go a long way. Because then you make hope viral for yourself and for other people, because you believe in yourself, you know, no one's going to believe in you the way that you're going to believe in yourself. And you just have to be willing to wrestle that vision forward. So I hope that's good advice, but like, just own yourself, go for it go all in, and, you know, find, find where you belong. And then if you can't find where you belong, find a place that you can call your own.
Mary : it's beautiful. I feel like you could easily create something for each Rare Breed where it was a list of questions to ask employers to find discernment as to whether or not they are accepting of your rare breed. I think that that would be like...
Sunny : It's already in the works.
Mary : Because as an emotional, I've struggled with finding the right employers. And until I started to learn, what are those questions to help me be discerning..
Sunny : you have to be discerning. you are your own advocate, if you are not championing yourself, and you are not looking out for what you need, as a person, and you are not in a company that sees you and allows you to thrive. Sometimes you gotta get out. And I know a lot of people are gonna say: Wait, you know, I have a family, I have got bills to pay. It is easier said than done. But there are ways and I've seen it done, I've seen some people who reduce their hours at the company they were at and tried to find the job that they were looking for and did some stuff. I've had people that have written to me and said they were doing it late at night, like, you know, they were putting in the time instead of playing Nintendo they were, they were up all night chasing their dream, you can do it, you know, it's just, you have to know where that threshold of pain is for you. Some people like they're happy where they are, and that's totally fine. But there are a lot of people who are very unhappy with where they are. And so change it, do something about it. Make that effort for yourself, because you're worth it.
David : Yeah, I mean, it stinks that life is like this, but pain can certainly be the gift. And sometimes pain can be the gift that pushes you to become your fullest self. So yeah,
Sunny : cuz if every day you look out the window, and you dream of being a cook, like you want to cook food. And that's where your heart is at. And all you do when you're at work is, do you know how unfair that is to your employer? That you're dreaming of being somewhere anywhere else, but there. Go chase that dream. You just have to be able to put in the work.
Mary : It has been such a treat to have you on our podcast. I can't thank you enough, Sunny.
Sunny : Yeah, this was so much fun. You guys asked amazing questions. I loved it
Mary : We do our best.
Sunny : It was fun. I hope to inspire the audience. And hopefully there's some value out of this for anyone listening.
Mary : Oh, the value is undeniable. I think that you guys have created something that is necessary. And I love that it came from something that your dad told you. I love that story.
David : And the fact that it just aligns to know yourself, to know other people is the beginning work of better dialogue and conversation
Mary : Thank you again for coming on.
Sunny : Thank you both. It's been a true joy
Mary : Be well!
