Ep 25 - New Year, Know You! Series - Unpacking the Enneagram with Nicole Seawell
You’ve heard it before… “New Year, New You!” We say screw that and instead suggest “New Year, Know You!”
It is likely that the last year exposed parts of ourselves we had either never met, forgotten about, or rarely acknowledged. Over the coming weeks we will take deep dives into a variety of concepts, assessments, and tools that can support you in reintroducing yourself to yourself. Our goal is to give everyone permission to first befriend themselves again as we are ever-evolving and changing beings. It is likely that the last year exposed parts of ourselves we had either never met, forgotten about, or rarely acknowledged. Whatever your experience, there is no time like the present to meet yourself again.
Over the coming weeks we will take deep dives into a variety of concepts, assessments, and tools that can support you in reintroducing yourself to yourself. Because when we are grounded in a sense of authentically knowing ourselves we can show up for ourselves and others more fully. It is our hope that from here, we can then move into tough, sticky topics that require us to be rooted in healthy and productive core truths about ourselves.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Mary : Well, hello 2021
David : Welcome January 2021, all of our problems are now over. 2020 is behind us. Wait, what?
Mary : Everything that happened in 2020 didn't happen or doesn't matter, because it's a new year.
David : That's not right.
Mary : Don't you know, David?
David : If only
Mary : I wish, I wish, I think that that will no longer be a shared sentiment because of how wrong we were last year.
David : I know, it's like every TV show, Instagram story that I see right now is “Well. This is what I said in January 2020. And I'm not gonna say anything about January 2021.” They're just everyone was wrong. Yeah. You know,
Mary : I don't want to jinx it that way. So are you someone that does resolutions or no?
David : No, I don't. I don't like resolutions. And I think it's because I'd rather live my life in a way if I see something that I need to change. You know, why wait till January to do it? But I think more than that, when I try to make a big change, it just doesn't stick. You know, versus Okay, what do I want to be, so kind of setting the target of the goal. And then what's the first step to get there rather than just like, make a big leap? Like, do I I can't change my whole diet overnight, but I can make one change.
Mary : And there's something about like setting a goal or having a resolution on January 1, that means like, this is a 12 month commitment. And that to me, I think is more intimidating. It's sort of like what we talked about in a lot of our episodes is that when we're saying, Hey, bring on this new exercise that adds more anxiety, that's counterproductive to the intention behind it, right? So yeah.
David : And for me that anxiety, it's almost like it sets me up to fail. I love how we did bring it up in one of our earliest episodes about meditation. Yeah, like for me to think about adding a meditation practice of 15 minutes or even 10 minutes a day, I would fail three or four days in. But I can think about adding 30 seconds a day, a breath a day. And if I fail, I can start over next hour or start tomorrow when I feel like I make a new year's resolution. And at least ones I've tried to make in the past, by the time I fail three or four days in, it's just like, forget it, versus every day's a new chance to start something small.
Mary : Well, I mean, it's human nature to rebel, right. So when someone, even if that someone is yourself telling you, you can't do something, you're like, screw you, I can do whatever I want. So that's then it creates this tension rather than approaching new habits or newness with a flow. Part of the reason why I don't like resolutions is because I think that when I'm in flow with myself, I make little changes on whatever day or whatever hour it might be. And I challenge myself to not have to assign those changes to a Monday because it's the start of a week or to the first of a month, whatever it may be, and instead, like give myself the flexibility to like, start fresh, or try something new at any given moment. Plus, resolutions to me makes me feel like I'm just like one of many. And it's like I'm joining the bandwagon. And that's something that I rebel against
David : So you’re rebelling against the rebelling of yourself. Is that how I follow that?
Mary : I am just not realizing how much of a rebel I am
David : Well, stay tuned for next week when we talk about rare breeds.
Mary : Yes. Which is all about being a rebel and accepting that rebel within.
David : While I don't like the new year for resolutions, I do like the new year for a moment to pause and reflect. Because it's kind of like it is ending a chapter of your life story. Good, bad, or whatever. But you're now able to close a chapter and move on. So I think while resolutions is not something I'm striving towards, taking a pause and being reflective and looking within is really healthy.
Mary : Yeah. What I love about what we're talking about is that each of us have strong opinions around resolutions or goal setting or whatever it is. And that to me is a testament to the work that we're always trying to do to be more self aware. And you know, in January, you hear this all the time, New Year, new you and our approach in this time is to say ``New Year, know you” so I think many of us can agree that last year was really revealing. It's likely that through the adversities of 2020, we've all been reintroduced to parts of ourselves that maybe we never had met or hadn't faced in some time. And so the intention behind this January Series that we're calling “New Year, Know You” is really just a continuation of doing the work to understand ourselves better so that we can do everything that is within the third place, or the spirit of the third place, which is having deeper conversations that are often not so fun.
David : Right. And I think that we did say a few times last year, the work of the third place is now just beginning, right? So we want to equip ourselves with tools to go deeper with our relationships, intimate relationships, professional relationships, personal relationships, all of them. But one of the best ways to do that is to have that knowing of yourself, like how do we even process information? And for me, I mean, this is something we talked about when we did talk about personality assessments in the fall as a whole, like one of the reasons why I like them is we're all complex, and knowing myself is this journey too. I get surprised all the time. with these personalized assessments of I learned a little bit more of my own self, and I'm the one that's inside my own head. But I still am constantly learning about myself, how I do process information, how I feel information, how I think about information. And the more I do that, the better equipped I am, to have those really great relationships and healthy dialogues.
Mary : Yeah, because then you're rooted in a sense of knowing and you're coming from a more consistent place. And consistency is a really important piece of the puzzle when having conversations around things that are more heightened. So we love personality assessments because they are also really bite sized. And over the next few weeks, we're going to be introducing you to three different perspectives. Today, the enneagram, next week, what Sonny and Ashley co-authors of a book call being a rare breed. And then following that Myers Briggs, tried and true approach to personality that we've all probably heard of at one point or another.
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David : Cool. Well, we hope that these conversations are going to be helpful for you as we all start this journey to learn more about ourselves
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : We invite you into the Third Place. So welcome everyone to the third place Podcast. I am elated to be bringing on someone that became a friend in the last year, not even half of a year. Nicole Seawell really was a saving grace to my four siblings and I when we lost our father at the end of March, and was looking like how can I find an estate family lawyer and she really came with her husband and had helped us through completely foreign territory for us. And through that has also started her own company outside of that. So not only are you a mom, you are a lawyer and you started sailor sweet life, which is really why we're bringing you on board today is to talk more about the work that you do with the enneagram.
Nicole : Yes, I'm so excited. it all ties together as we'll see.
Mary : Yes. So true. So true.
David : For anyone who's not familiar. I'm only a year ish familiar with enneagram. And thinking through it. So maybe just a brief synopsis of what is it? I think it's definitely becoming more and more popular.
Nicole : Absolutely. All right. So I've been working with the enneagram getting near a decade. As you shared Mary, I am an attorney. And I also started a social enterprise with a colleague from law school, called “Women in the Mix” back in about 2012. And it was dedicated to the proposition that we as moms, we as women, that our moms can have meaningful work and meaningful family life, that it shouldn't be an either or proposition, but it takes kind of the best of access, community support and probably an attitude. And that's a lot where enneagram came into place. A lot of us are familiar with the old Myers brigg and these kind of personality assessments or motivational assessments, right. And so the enneagram is a tool. I like to call it a tool that, you know, you might have heard a big five or Myers Briggs or many of the other ones out there, why I became such a fan, student and then teacher of enneagram is because it's so usable, I am very action oriented and it can give action no matter what you're motivated by no matter what your personality is like introverted, extroverted, adaptable, flexible, inflexible, right? Positive, negative, optimistic, whatever it is, it's a working tool. And so it is both a study, you learn something and a practice, you practice it, and then you keep building on it, it's really intricate. If you want to go that deep, it's really simple as we'll go through today, to get started. And you can apply right probably from our lesson today, as we talk, and we talked about the two of you, which is so much fun, we will see ways in which you can apply it almost immediately. And that's why it's so different, I think, than many of the other tools out there is because it is a working tool. Simple. Get going, if you're willing
Mary : I love hearing that because a lot of what we try to do on the third place, too is how can we give bite size little bits of takeaways that people can implement, that don't feel like anxiety producing but they're meant to remedy that. So, you know, I hear that the enneagram sounds very similar in that way, that it's a way for you to create greater understanding in an expedited way, and then also have takeaways that can be easily implemented.
Nicole : Absolutely. And so I should probably, I skipped from lawyer to “women in the mix”, and then to enneagram. And I skipped the step of sailor sweet life. Sailor sweet life is a life strategy business just so that people know how the parts come together. Think about kind of life coaching, but on steroids with a specific implementable customizable plan for that individual. And the whole idea is advice that we all receive is generally so well intended, but so poorly executed, because Mary, I would give you advice. And David advice based on what works for me, the best version of me, me taking action that doesn't have emotions and messiness involved. And that's probably not a great fit necessarily for either one of you, let alone both of you. So a sweet life strategy really is based on the idea that I believe that everybody should have a sweet life. Notice I didn't say happy because we get this image of skipping through the street with balloons and candy falling in the air and life has no complication or challenge. And as you know very well in this last six month, life has lots of complications, and challenges. And that's not the part where we're actually looking to change, we're changing and fortifying our reaction to what comes at us so that it doesn't feel necessarily so hard, or really what I like to say is it's the ultimate unstuck, we understand what motivates us from enneagram. And we layer that in with a strategy for our, you know, goodness, our success, our sweet life.
David : Yeah, well, and I like too, how to me relates to your other work as well, just empowering women. And to be both and, it feels like, from my perspective, that COVID has made things more stressful for everybody, but women disproportionately are carrying more burdens than they were before. And we are already were not at the level playing field. So, you know, it's like, we went backwards. And it's really frustrating to see all that. So to be able to continue to empower, to meet people where they're at. And to move forward. I think it's just really important work today more than ever.
Nicole : Absolutely. And the goal is to equip, and therefore you're empowered, if you feel like you can get through, even if it's hard, right? juggling the many different, you know, balls in the air that we each have man or woman, right father or mother. But generally, as you said, moms tend to wear lots of different hats at the same time and try to keep the balls in the air, right? And it doesn't always happen. And you do the best you can. But if you have something that you know, works for you, like I know what motivates me, I know how to get the best out of me. I also know what triggers me and challenges me where, you know, we often call it Oh, I procrastinate. So we procrastinate because things are hard. And they're not hard across the board to all of us. Right? Like think about really simplistically, school, if you were more math or stem brained, or if you were more writing in history brain, you generally did the subjects that came to you naturally, and you'd like this is great. And then everybody would always tell you to dig in, you know, kind of that strengthsfinder thing and, and and really, you know, figure out how to leverage up those things that you're weak about? Well, actually, I really believe the enneagram really leverages those natural strengths and smooth a bit of the triggers, anticipate them, meet them in a place of strength as opposed to Oh, I'm always behind. Right and so that is that whole idea is like figure out if you weren't math brained Yes, you can get through math, but actually when you're an adult, can you outsource math? Not right now and you know in a pandemic when your children are home with you, and I'm doing linear algebra with one of them which is way past my paygrade and many years in my past, but we figured out a way to get through
Mary : Do you remember that webinar that you and I both attended that was on productivity and energy? And you and I ended up having like, we had a sidebar chat conversation during the webinar, because it was sort of pigeon holing that the best to have the most productive day you had to wake up at this hour and do these things, and that it was sort of unfold in that way. And we were like, well, that really only applies to one certain type. And that's not acknowledging that the first step is to understand when do you have optimal energy? And what type of energy and how do you utilize that type of energy for the work that you need to get done in the requirements of the duties that you have? Right. So I just thought that seemed like so relevant to what we're talking about that it's like, personalizing it, and really backing up and simplifying it at the same time, and not just creating this one blanket statement or approach.
Nicole : So I love that you brought that up, because that's one of the other tools that I use. And it's a less well known one is the concept of creating, knowing your crono type, which is just your time type. And it's based on science and research. And it shows that by knowing there's generally three main ones, and by doing a simple kind of quiz, and really looking inside yourself, and being honest, not what society expects, but truly your best moments and your not such best moments. And knowing your time type, you can actually structure your day and you and I have this wonderful sidebar, because when you layer your enneagram archetype, right with your chronotype, so all your types coming together, and then really doing a dig, um, where you feel the best, what gives you the most energy, what takes it away from you, you start creating the strategy, and therefore you have something, you know your priorities that takes you all the way through. So just going to the time type for a second because I know you and I related on this, people love to tell you in productivity talks, to tell us, you should do this ABCD all through your day, from rise to shine, you should meditate at this time, you should do your exercise at this time, you should get this done at this time. And I will totally break that up for you all because you're really trying to figure out where you're most creative when you're most collaborative when you're most analytical, and people love to say getting everything done in the morning. First of all, everything does not fit in the morning. And there's certain things that actually happen so much better in the afternoon. Because almost universally people are more and I love this term, fuzzy brained, we’re more and more fuzzy brains, we’re less focus, we’re less energetic. Don't go to the doctor, don't go to the dentist. Don't tell them I told you that. But don't do that. There's more mistakes made in the afternoon and surgeries, there's more complications and sponges left in people. There's more infections that happen after because everybody is less clear in the afternoon. It's not oftentimes we think of it as that lunch devit, it's not, it's just a natural energy flow that happens for nearly the whole population. But amazing creative solutions can come in the afternoon. It's an amazing time to connect socially. Things that we just are trying to solve when we keep going down the same path down the same path down the same path. Well, because we're fuzzy brained, that path isn't so clear. And now we're open to new paths. And there's other kind of fun tips and tricks to layer and depending on which time type you are.
David : That's super fascinating.
Mary : I feel kind of cool, because I learned my energy, it was just so abundantly obvious. I've always been a very early bird, very sharp at that time. So what I did, when I finally started to put that into action was in college, I put all of my classes that I had to attend, I actually did it in the afternoon hours so that I could be the most active or optimal in the morning. So I changed it for a long time, I thought I should be the most alert and available and I should have all morning classes. And instead I lost all of that energy that I was having in that time. And so I flip flopped, and I remember that was like revolutionary for me as a 20 year old.
Nicole : What did you study?
Mary : I studied contemplative psychology.
Nicole : Oh, perfect. Okay, so I did a blog post a couple months back called math in the morning and it's been one of my most popular because I would tell you to take analytical classes, maths and sciences in the morning but psychology and contemplating right contemplative afternoon, you are so much more open to receiving and thinking big, and then thinking down the line. So, as your kids grow up, math in the morning, if you can handle it, the statistics support it. That scores are almost double in the morning. But the difference is doing creative writing, writing, reading, psychology, social studies, history all in the afternoon.
Mary : I love that.
David : I feel like I thrive more in the afternoon. So I'm really good on the analytical side and that probably just naturally take care of that in the morning. Get stuff out of the way but I am more of the night owl afternoon gets me going and it's because I mean, Mary knows, once the creative gets going in me, I can't turn it off. So that fits my personality that makes a lot of sense.
Mary : And our dynamic, because often, maybe he'll feel behind by midday and I'll feel and then it'll flip flop. So by the next morning, I feel behind and then we like because each of our roles in the work that we do together is so complimentary in that way more of the details versus the vision not to say that we both don't have both, but that really, it's that strengths thing. So then, you know, to get back to the enneagram, how many children do you have?
Nicole : I have three sons.
Mary : I don't know if you know this, Nicole, maybe I told you, but we did the enneagram. My four siblings, and my parents and I, when I was in middle school, and I thought that that was so bizarre. I mean, this was in the 80s, or the early 90s. And I feel like that's where my love of personality tests come from, or just the curiosity I have about how people operate and how they operate in relationship. And I grew up being told I was a six, but I have not tested as a six since then.
Nicole : So that's what's interesting is that you, everybody wants a quick solution, right? Tell me what it is. So you can do these assessments. And I always caution people, it's a starting place. Enneagram is really in the self recognition. Because in self recognition, there's a big part of acceptance. And when you accept that you are a number. If it fits, right, you actually have so much potential with that archetype. It empowers you. It gives you so much clarity it gives you a roadmap forward to yourself and to others, especially when it comes to communication, and interaction. However, if people tell you're a number, and that number doesn't fit, it's actually useless, right? So everybody wants a quick test, or there's really pricey tests. And I always caution everybody about that. Because we have a bias, like when we take a quiz, be it five questions or 105 questions. We can't help. Except if you're an eight, because eights are really clear, but if you're any other archetype, enneagram you're gonna answer somewhat with influences of parents of the societal shoulds. What does society value? Oh, I wish I was more like that. I'll just check yes. And maybe I'll grow into it. And so they don't come out. accurate. I'd say they're just a starting place. And I believe you said since then, you've taken quite a few and one shows up quite a bit for you, Mary, which, having seen you over many zoom conversations. The one is very fitting, right? A one is guided by a sense, an idealism, a sense of perfect, right and correct. There's a correct way to do things they make others feel cared for, because they do things to get them done with integrity so your siblings, just trust you. Because they know that's how you go at life. A different enneagram archetype they might have thought you could have been more out for yourself. Because as a younger sibling, are you actually the youngest?
Mary : The youngest, yeah.
Nicole : Okay. So as the youngest sibling, that's what I thought, um, and you have quite a few siblings that are quite a bit older than you, right. Oftentimes, the one that takes charge is the oldest just because of birth order. But their comfort and confidence in you was very reaffirming to the one that you are not that you couldn't be a six but because you organize thinker precise in what you're doing, there's an innate sense of fairness. And that is very one, to have others believe in your integrity, your sense of equality and equity, your idealism, that there's a right way to go through and have a fair outcome.
Mary : I mean, as I'm listening, it's so spot on. And I'm sure David would agree that anytime I've come to him in the last five years, because he's seen my progression in my career as well, that when my integrity is questioned, that's one of my greatest triggers is when someone does not trust me, projects a lack of trust or has some false idea that there's any lacking integrity, even if it's a hair that can really make me spiral. And the one thing though, about the one that the perception I've had of it is that it's like very much a perfectionist. Is that true?
Nicole : It can be but we have to remember that it goes to our main priorities. My husband's a one and it does not mean that everything he does is just right. Those things he cares about, are done just right is our house neat as a pin, is his car neat as a pin, all those things people always think it goes all the way across it actually applies to the things that matter to us most. Right? So I'm just going to throw David in for a second. David, I believe you came back with a three, wing two. And a three is an achiever, right accomplishment based. So three’s are generally high energy, they're human do-er’s almost over human beings. They at times have an uncanny ability to pivot and take in what has to happen, but at the same time, they can get lost in it. But that doesn't mean they achieve across everything in life, because some of the things that don't matter to them, they're not going to bother putting their energy to. Now, David, I know we'll get back to it because David thinks he possibly could be a seven, which there are similarities between threes and sevens. So we'll get to that in a second. But I just wanted to bring that up, because we are not caricature of the actual archetypes. Like, because there are short term terminology, and really wonderful long descriptions that you can read. Oftentimes, people feel like, Oh, my God, it's like someone looked at my soul, because you start shaking your head. That's why I'm saying you do the work, right, you really do the work to see and it's not a lot of work at enneagram, because it's so approachable. But when you connect with an archetype, you do you feel like someone peeked inside your soul, because 80 to 90%, of what's written about both the wonderful things, but also the cringe worthy parts really connect to you, not 100%, because we're dynamic, interesting human beings, we're not divided into nine equally. And that's how when I say as you go on to study enneagram, you have a wing, which is one of the numbers next to you on the chart, you have a place you go in security, you have a place, you go in insecurity, some people are divided fairly equally between their primary archetype and their wing. So if you met another one, Mary, you're not going to mimic each other. I'm a three, David and I are not going to mimic each other if he is a three as well, we'll share some certain commonalities, we'll probably communicate very effectively, if we share a number, because three’s are direct, they get right to action, they appreciate no hidden agenda, they appreciate if you say you're going to do it, you're really going to do it. You know, there's certain things that I think enneagram is one of the most wonderful communication tools. That's one of the ways I've been working with a lot of clients right now, as we get toward the holidays, whether they're meeting in person, or they're meeting zoom or in a park or whatever it is. Can they get along in the time that they're together? And 90% of negative interaction is not from bad intention. It's from miscommunication. People talk like they're talking to themselves, because that's effective to them. But you really need to figure out how to pivot for your recipient for who you're speaking with.
Mary : Man that that sinks in for sure. I mean, that you talk like you talk to yourself is something that I witness, and experience so much, I'm trying to stretch a little bit more all the time to be able to communicate from an empathetic state and understand how they would understand it better. But that takes so much practice and so much work.
Nicole : So the more practice you do, the less work it is, it feels like work in the beginning, because we have to think outside of ourselves and pivot. For the audience, you would think right away family of five kids, you're the youngest, you would be a genius pivoter, potentially, knowing your different siblings and their different styles, which I encounter. The motivation for it is that you actually it's more productive. It's more effective, right? If your first communication is actually well received. Ones because they have such good intention, such impeccable integrity, don't understand, in some sense why people just don't believe them and take it as is the first time they say it, right. But at the same time, if you feel questions ones can become very defensive. And I wish they could see your eyes ones can become very defensive. And then their communication is almost dismissive of others, and aggressive. Right? And so the key is, can you recognize a situation and not come across as critical? I work with several families and I have one dad as a one and his kids are not and they sometimes really lose each other because his intention is good, how he comes across felt so critical to them that they just tune right out. Right. And that's ineffective for everyone. I wanted to give a little bit to your audience in just understanding the archetypes from abroad level, there's nine of them, right. So in this tool, there's nine archetypes one through nine, the even numbers 1,3,5,7 tend to be analytically based. So their motivations, their decisions, their actions, their communications tend to be more on the analytical side, they're in their head side. 2468, the even numbers tend to be more emotionally based. So their communications come from more of a heart side. Right there we can see there can be a rub, right, you've got an analytical and an emotional. The Nine, the top of the enneagram, which is our beautiful Peacemaker is kind of bringing the peace between the two they’re analytically and emotionally based. The reason I bring that up is because depending on who's in the room with you, whether you're in a work situation, in a immediate family situation with your partner, spouse, or your extended family with all your siblings, both of you, if you are truly odd numbers, which I think you are a one and a three are going to speak easier. Think about the people in the room with you, you 1357 if your siblings work colleague, spouse is one of those, it makes the conversations easier. If you're in a room full of emotion based people, if for whatever reason you didn't connect on the first communication, you've lost them somewhat. So analytical people need to be thoughtful about making an emotional payment. Emotional people need to be thoughtful about giving enough facts, information, rational basis when they're communicating. So in a family, for example, I have three teenage boys, there are four of the five of us in our immediate family that are odd numbers. So it's a highly analytical family, one of them is my spouse, so our conversations tend to be naturally more aligned. Because we both operate in this kind of brain space. You know, in our heads, which is neither good or bad, it just means that we're understanding each other more naturally. Imagine being the kid who's the even number, right, the emotions base kid with two analytical parents and two analytical brothers. Right? Who do you think is most challenged in our family by our natural dynamic?
Mary : Oh, yeah, definitely that outlier
Nicole : Mm hmm. And you don't love anyone more than you love your children, right. So as a parent, what a fantastic tool to be like, take a deep breath, Nicole pivot, slow down, make an emotional payment, give him time to process, require a response, but be open to what that response is? Right? very different than I speak to my husband or my other two kids. But there used to be a lot more friction that didn't have an explanation, especially for an analytical person that was really hard. And three, who moves fast, right? really hard. It has been a really useful and peaceful transition to that. So some people will say, Oh, that sounds so manipulative, and strategic, but it's not. It's actually very honoring of that other person to say, I see you, I understand you. And actually how I communicate with you, says a lot about how much I love you. Because it's not about me, it's about you.
David : Yeah. That's super fascinating, because I feel like, like, so Myers Briggs is the one test that I'm most familiar with. And I took it in college. And actually, the first time I took it was at the psychology department in school, and I tested like, straight down the middle on every category. But my friend was studying psychology and as a counselor today, and so I was kind of a guinea pig. But like, I always felt especially with thinker, feeler, I really could flip. And more recently, Mary and I took the enneagram. And I've embraced that I really am emotionally driven. So like, I just, I see the world in black and light, like, we either love people or we don't like why aren't we all loving the people right now? I don't understand. And and so I wrestle with that, but just the analytical side of me, is definitely still there. And I'm always thinking through things analytically as well. But I'm driven emotionally by the decisions I make. So it was fascinating to hear kind of that like how I'm flipping back and forth between those two. What's the synopsis of each one? Just, like even start with that, like, we've talked about the odd and even. And that's been super helpful, like, what is a good, quick summary of each one? Because now I'm trying to think through my siblings. And I think my brother might be based on what you just said more of an even number. And maybe that's why he and I have a tiny bit of tension around that. Right. So
Nicole : Oh, sure. Let me run you through them. And I'll try to give just kind of a name, a little indicator where it just does fantastic and where it might be triggered. How's that? So again, there's nine. So number one, one is often known as the improver or their perfectionist. I prefer the term improver just because as Mary said perfectionist brings up very specific things in people's mind and oftentimes negative but improver always looking to make things better to improve the world and everything around them to make things perfect, right? Correct, fantastic, idealistic people who are always putting a lot of energy to do things right. The flip side of that is they can get caught up in perfectionism, they can be hyper critical of themselves first and foremost, which sometimes comes out to others. It's not even that they're holding others to such a high standard, they hold themselves. And if they feel that they let themselves and the world around them, and the people they care down, it can come across as highly critical. In these days and COVID life, this is very hard for them. Because there is, you know, there isn't actually a right, there isn't a goal to achieve. So every day, they're trying to make it better. And it's really hard to do that. It's very energy taking away. But they get their energy from imposing goodness making things better in this world.
David : So Mary, that's you?
Mary : No big deal. I'm just an idealist that just wants to make everything better. David, you should be so lucky to be in my presence.
Nicole : It is fantastic to have a one in your world, especially in your work world where you two go off of each other's energy because Mary is a healthy one. That's how we oftentimes resolved Are you a healthy or an unhealthy one? Are you self aware and growing with it? Mary is a healthy one, she recognizes her wonderful part, she mentioned recognizes someone to her cringe worthy parts, and she can get herself back out. And that's always the goal of the enneagram. Is that is a useful tool that can take you where you feel like you're not thriving. And the idea is to be able to recognize it, name it and move out of it. Right? You're not moving in, you're having a short fortnight holiday, like you're just it's quick and out.
David : Yeah, well, my wife is a one too, so clearly, maybe my personality type attracts one's
Nicole : Exactly. Okay, so then the two as we're moving, and we move clockwise, so the one is just about at the one o'clock place, the two moves down to the three because we don't have 12 numbers, right. And the nine is the top of the circle when you're thinking about it. The two is called the helper or the giver, the helper giver. So very motive base, they want to help. They are completely geared toward relationship. People think of Oprah on steroids, right? When a two is in their sweet spot, and they are giving, giving, giving, they're relentless and helping others. The negative of that is they get their energy from the connection with others. And if they don't feel needed, and appreciated. They can go into martyrdom, like concocting fake things to get more attention on. And sometimes for analytical folks, twos are so incredible when they're healthy when they're hanging out. And they're not such good place in that martyr dome, or I need lots of attention. I'm needy. They can almost be like repellent to people, which is the opposite of what they want, right? And I'm speaking in extremes. So I don't want anybody to but I want them to start to recognize themselves. So I am speaking in those extremes. So they see it.
Mary : Well. And Nicole, side note, I tested as a two a couple of times right after I became a mom. So just that my identity at the time was so anchored in becoming a caregiver right and becoming a mother that something David and I talked about too, was just that that was fascinating that that obviously came through that I was like, I was often coming out that way when that was not my core. I was like this just isn't sticking. But there is so much I was taking the test in that mom identity
Nicole : You just hit two things so perfectly. So thank you for bringing that up is number one. That's a perfect reason why a test is a starting place and not the answer. Because you answered very much in the place you were caretaking and loving in a way that you never had before. And you were over, like your whole identity became part of that. And the second thing is I've worked with quite a few groups of women who happen to be moms. And when they take the test and we start, they'll have a room, let's say with 12 or 14 women and 10 or 12 of them will tell me they're twos. And after the initial workshop two hours later, I've got maybe two or three twos. We dug back to see who you really are. Being a mom is and probably a dad as well is so all encompassing it changes where your energy is going. But it doesn't actually change where you get energy from and that's what I really want people to dig into is if you find an accurate archetype and you try it on for size, you will when you live in that sweet spot in that healthy place, you get so much energy because you're living right aligned with your natural motivations, as opposed to a societal push, or when you even put on yourself like being a mom, right? Okay, so number three as we're moving around, clockwise is called the performer or achiever. These are high energy doers. Human doings over human beings. They are achievements based. They have the unrivaled ability to see what's coming and pivot and always find a way through. I am a three, there are things about me when I read the three description that just made me laugh out loud because they fit so well. So threes often sound fantastic, people are like I want a three and I would say to people, you want a three in your team? They do do do. Where is a three actually not so wonderful sounding. Okay, here we go. And I heard this. Once in one of my teachings I attended, and it really stuck with me. Three, sometimes they're so busy achieving and doing and they're good at it, lose themselves, they actually don't know their priorities, they actually don't really know what makes them tick without a lot of work because they're so busy, pleasing and achieving in the world because they can, that they're often disconnected to their inner self. So one teacher who's really well respected in this world had said the three is the most tragic one on the enneagram. And I was like, oh, that can't be I don't feel tragic. Threes are generally very optimistic, can do, pragmatic, right? I am not tragic, right? But then when I actually sunk into it, honestly, I can tell you that that is true of myself and many, many others that threes until, you can really get in touch with yourself. You just do it because you can, you're not 100% sure on the why. Then we move into the fours. The fours know they're why. They're completely different from the threes, again, even so very motive based, the four is the romantic or the individualist. They are motivated by making this world, their place in this world to be special and unique. They don't want an ordinary experience. They're bored very easily. They're deep in whatever they do, oftentimes, they can be creative people, artists, photographers, musicians, actors, on huge emotional depth, and realm. The downside is they can actually be moody and broody, almost depression bound, because statistics show, research shows 85 to 90% of the experience that you go through in this world, regardless of your socio economic level, gender, race, where you live in this world, is stuff that has to happen to get day to go by so that details are different. But the happenings paying bills, taking care of your health, brushing your teeth, making your bed, laundry, the bank, raising children, whatever, those are not necessarily special to fours, right. So they want to always engage in deep conversation or be creating the next symphony. So four sometimes can really struggle in an ordinary world. Five, back to analytical, known as the investigator or the observer. These are the smartest people in the room. These are your intellects that just are motivated by information, there's never enough information for them, they want to ultimately make the right decision. If you have a five, you're going to notice them by slow moving, slow to share, especially about personal details, and slow to share their opinion. However, once they formulated one, it's fantastic. And if you have a five in your world, they're great advice givers, because they take in all the rational information of a situation and give you advice based on what would be the best outcome on the information. There's not a lot of emotion in there. A six is your loyalist, or your loyal skeptic. They're all about safety and security. Again, a motive base, they want to control things to limit the possibility of things going wrong. They make fantastic friends and siblings and parents. They're very much loyal and steadfast, they're protective of those that matter to them. They've been preparing for Corona their whole lives, they knew there would be something that would take the world down, and they'd be prepared. It also is very exhausting for them to worry and pivot for all those things that can go wrong. So at times they can be seen as a buzzkill or a party killer because they see where things can go wrong. And if I can't wrap my child in a helmet and bubble wrap, they shouldn't be doing that kind of thing. So said six really wants to control the situation to decrease the risk, really risk adverse. Now on the flip side of that we get to the seven, odd, analytical. All right, try this on David. Sevens and threes have some similarities, okay? Sevens are the life enthusiasts. Everybody wants to be a seven when they first look at it. Sevens love life, their experience oriented people who want and seek joy for themselves and others. They are generally the life of the party. They are active, they are the opposite of the sixth, they're more risk tolerant because they're willing to take some risks, emotional or physical In order to get more joy and experience and newness in life, they love novelty. They're big idea people, they have a lot of energy. threes, sevens and eights gentle, tend to be the biggest energy on the enneagram. They have a lot of natural energy for executing ideas and whatnot. But sevens, unlike threes, here's the slippery side of a three is always going to finish. Even if it's monotonous and boring, they said they would, and they will. A seven loves to start has a really hard time getting through the middle. And they try to avoid unpleasantry or pain. So if they're struggling with something, a three will get through it. They're not as lively or necessary as fun or big idea people. Seven are big idea, people, but they often need someone with a little more discipline to help push them through to the end, I parent, two sevens. It's an interesting journey. I'm like, of course, you should do it, because you should do it. They're like, no, not fun. I'm like, well, let's find fun some other way. But you're gonna get it done. So you can see how we, I figured that out with them. I was like, Okay, you go take this and do that, and then come back and get your schoolwork done, or your obligation for the family, or whatever it is. So you figure out ways to work together. from seven, we jump to age eight, again, I said, is one of the highest energy ones on the enneagram, arguably the highest, the eight is the independent or challenger. An eight actually is highly emotive, but it doesn't seem that way when you meet them. Eights often, to me are the easiest to recognize, they exude strength and competence. They are amazing leaders, natural leaders, they make people feel taken care of. And they just need to follow in time. where eights are challenged are that they come across as black and white thinkers their way or the highway, different than a one. It's not that it's just right, it's just their way because they're confident and strong in themselves. And they're usually so able to execute because they have so much energy. Ones are driven by an idealism. eights are driven to be independent, no one should control them. And then we'll round out with the nine which is really interesting right next to the eight, the nine, the top of the enneagram. Both a mix of emotive and analytical are beautiful peacemakers or collaborative ones, they exist to bring peace to a situation, they love bringing groups of people together, whether it's in a work situation, or a family, they intrinsically know how to bring a calm about the room. There's nothing more wonderful than a nine in any situation, because there's always some potential conflict to be had. So especially in a big group of siblings, or a leadership group, or a work team that's working toward a goal and everybody's in different places, nines can sense what needs to be done to bring people together, the flip side of it is because they're so busy bringing people together, they lose themselves, and you sometimes will get them to be withdrawn, or actually quite angry. And they won't express why. But it's because they feel lost. They lost their own opinion or their sense of contribution, because they're so busy merging the group that they've merged right into group identity. One quick thing because people always say, Well, how is a nine and twos oftentimes get confused. Two is about the individual relationship, they get energy from the relationships themselves. Nine is about the whole actually group think, the group feel nines actually really appreciate time by themselves to recharge their batteries. twos never want to be by themselves, they love to be around others.
Mary : I feel like only a three could have just given such a perfect synopsis of all nine enneagram types in five minutes or less. That was amazing. So David, what's sitting with you between the three and the seven? I'm sitting here with like, I have a I don't know, and I feel like you're the only person that can really like, bring that forth?
David : Well, yeah, I just pulled up the results of my test. So it's like the top score was three by far in both the tests that we took, and then the next score down was a two on both of them. And then the next score down on one was a nine because when you're talking about like, more of the groupthink, I'm like, I feel like I I go to that, like how do I create this scenario where there's always a win win win, it's the team that we try to empower and collectively we're gonna get through this. The other test didn't even have nine it was like way, way, way down on the bottom. But um, yeah, I don't know, I think between three and seven, the big, big thinker of the seven I relate to but there was one piece of the seven I'm like, Nope, that's not me.
Nicole : Do you recognize yourself in any of the cringy parts? like would you recognize yourself more so it's seven I said they avoid on pleasantry. They can procrastinate. They can start and not finish versus a three, a three and it's cringy parts are they can lose sight of themselves, they can cut corners to get finished. Very unlike, don't tell Mary that, very unlike one, a one does not cut corners, but a three...
David : Oh, we already know that about each other.
Nicole : My husband and I are like that. A three will cut corners, you know, good enough is the new perfect 80% over 20%. Yeah, there you go. Okay, so they cut corners, they get really triggered by people who say they're going to do something and not do it. They get really triggered by people holding them back. If they have to slow down, they're often in a rush to get it done. They're racing toward the finish line, so to speak. Do you recognize yourself in any of those not such nice attributes?
David : Yeah, yeah, I think that that's better. I think that fits.
Nicole : And I think because you also said you're very emotive, I wonder if you're a three with a strong wing two, very, in touch and Mary, I wonder if you're a one. I was thinking you’re one wing nine, because of what you do with your siblings, because I've seen you in that. But I'm wondering if you think that peacemaker also goes into other roles in your life versus just the individual more relationship centric?
Mary : Well, you know, to first touch on David, you always get it done, David. So, you know, you may not check off all your tasks in Asana, but you've done them, right. So I'm sitting here thinking that seven where it was like that, you just have a hard time pushing it over the finish line, like you always push it over the finish line. So for me, I think that you probably are more that and the helper is so in you, you are the most, he's such a theologian and such a person that just wants to help the world, one of the kindest people you'll ever meet. So I think that at his core, no doubt the confusion might come from how close you are with those two, but that you're just operating from, you know, different situations call different parts of you. But for me, I have a lot of peacemakers around me. There's two for sure. My mom and my sister Grace is a peacemaker. And I've mentioned that in the past. I haven't even considered myself that because I always just sort of put them as the peacemakers and didn't know if that was really me. But I am really able to help balance a room and a group. I mean, in the work setting, that's been my role all the time is how can I bring people together? And I've been told the loyal thing, and clearly I was told that younger a part of me now and I'm thinking about the six makes me think, was I mostly just, you’re so easily influenced, as a middle schooler by all your siblings that I think that probably was less accurate. But loyalty is something that I hold pretty dear to. It's hard to know.
Nicole : And remember, it's not that we're black and white in it, right? It's that we're going for what we're most Yeah, that doesn't mean you don't have others and like looking at David, some people, you know, their results are so heavily weighted one way and other people's just tick right down. So it's really again, why we call it a study and a practice, it's really easy to learn a little bit, implement a little bit, learn some more, implement some more and be able to pivot you know that easy for three to say it is because pivoting is a natural place for three I'm like ooh, learn implement more Ooh, learn implement more.
David : And that might speak to you like cuz every one of them. I'm like, sometimes I'm that sometimes. So maybe that is that three, then speaking up
Nicole : That is your three right, trying those on. And three, I would say what Mary said something about your David, when three is in their sweet spot when three is in their most healthy place. They are actually the most fantastic and helping others to recognize in themselves, their strengths, and giving them a path forward. threes always see a path forward. So when people talk with me, both professionally and personally, friends, I'll always be like, Oh, well, then you should just do that. Why don't you think of just doing that because three is always they can just see the steps right forward. And so when you're in a healthy place as a three, you see the steps forward for others, and you just want to help them get there. So you're always sharing that we're most people starting is the hardest part. And for three, that's not you're like well, that's the first step, just get going. And when you take the first step, the next seven steps are going to show themselves and every time you take a step, there's no other option. So come on, step, step, step, right. And so when a three is in a healthy place, when a three is not in a healthy place, they're competitive, and they're not willing to give those steps to others because they want to be achieving that was one I probably should have brought out there. But when threes are healthy, they're not competitive. They're beautiful and collaborative. And that's a wonderful place for threes to be if they're feeling strong, and that's the place to aim to be. So I don't want people to leave this thinking I must only be one thing. No, we are complex, oftentimes complicated human beings, the key is to figure out our complexities and live to the things that give us more joy, live to the parts of us that give more to the world around us, because it needs that. But we do too. We rise up, we attract that back and others when we're the best version of ourselves
Mary : I'm kind of tripping out because I realized that both of you as threes have helped me navigate through things so clearly, that, you know, through losing my father, I always would email you something, and you gave me the path of least resistance. And it was so succinct. I mean, I would send her a soliloquy, and then I'd get two sentences back. And I was like, Yes, like, so clear. And then the same thing with David. Anytime I've had to do something, he's just like, well, this is where it's heading. He's like, he can see that big picture. And he's like, so just this, these are the steps to get there. So there is this big picture thinking that I'm recognizing that you guys have ushered me through so much less pain as a result of our relationship. So thank you for one and, because otherwise, I'd be overanalyzing and trying to perfect it in all the good for all at the same time. And there's many times no such thing. I think that's the challenge with making decisions sometimes is you want it to be right for everyone, for me. And the other thing that you just touched on is, the reason why we brought you on to this too, is that the third place to us is about finding truths and a spectrum and not in a dichotomy. So it sounds to me that the enneagram is exactly that, that the essence of it really at its core is that we are not just this number, and it's not this black or white thing, there's this spectrum of finding truths and understanding our strengths and our motivators. And that that, in turn can help us be better in relationship and better to the world.
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Nicole : That was said perfectly. Absolutely. It is not sticking you to, there’s a wonderful quote, and I’ll paraphrase, but how the enneagram isn't putting you in a box, it's helping you figure out which box you're already in, and work your way out to live the life that you want. And so that is so true. And we are not copies of one another. We are our own versions, right. But we should be as you know, it's called sailor sweet life, the company because I think each person should live a sweet life. And enneagram is a tool in being able to do that.
David : So where can people find more about that work? Do you have social media handles, websites, where we can even take a little bit deeper dive with your work and the enneagram?
Nicole : Absolutely. Everything is under sailors Suite Life, which probably would have been easier to just be my name. But sailor Suite Life like a sailor on the high seas, S a i l o r s sweet life. So there's that double s right there.com @sailorssweetlife on Instagram, Pinterest and Facebook, where I share daily inspiration. But I think the thing that might be most interesting to your folks is right now I have a little mini course up. It is a self paced 10 video module, 90 minutes total with a detailed workbook where you can go through with me and figure out your type. So it's a great place to get started. And it is just $47. And that's just a little special. I'm running right now because I want people to be able to do the work. It's just a little more than buying a book. But it is interactive. And it is so important to interact while you do it, especially with yourself. You know, try on those questions of the good and the not so nice parts of it and knowing that there's not a right answer. So that's right there at sailorssweetlife.comunder courses. And you can always reach out to me, there's a contact button on there. If you have any questions. As you can see, I love talking this stuff. And as a three I love helping other people find a more productive and joyful path.
Mary : Thank you so much, Nicole, what an honor. Appreciate you so much.
Nicole : Absolutely. Thank you both.
Mary : All right. Be well
