Ep 24 - The Third Place - Best of 2020
We launched a podcast! Throughout this first year, we received a number of messages from listeners letting us know how different episodes had spoken to them.
As 2020 comes to a close, we take a moment to share these personal accounts with you. Our hope is that our episodes and interviews continue to challenge us to expand our perspectives, equip us with practical tools for better dialogue, and to teach us how to take care of ourselves.
Listen in as we share the best of this past season!
LISTEN ON:
TRANSCRIPT:
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : Hello, everyone. In closing up 2020, we wanted to take a look back and acknowledge everything that has happened, including the fact that we have brought to you the third place podcast. So a lot of times we've had people ask us, you know, what is the third place? Why did you start the third place podcast and what will become of it? So we wanted to take the opportunity really quickly to go back to our why, to remind ourselves and to remind you guys as listeners as to why we're doing this, give you a little bit of context and talk about what's to come.
David : Yeah, for a long time, we've been aware of just the need for better conversations. As a society, we've misused the word fighting and conflict. So often conflict is something that we're avoiding. And we use that word sometimes I think when we're supposed to use the word fighting. And those two words, they do share some similarities, but are really different from one another fighting is we disagree, and we're not going to be able to resolve where conflict is we disagree. But let's work through it. And when conflict is done, well, a relationship, whether it's personal or professional, conflict is an opportunity to grow the relationship and make it stronger. So many of these conversations, this is all pre politics. And the climate that we find ourselves in is certainly kind of at a peak of discord from one another. But these issues of learning how to talk to each other and create safe places for each other. They've been around for a long time.
Mary : Yeah, and David and I are working relationship over the last five years, was really rooted in the fact that we would come together to brainstorm, share techniques around our leadership tactics, and how to make stronger bonds and a more productive environment and a more safe environment for those that we were leading and for ourselves. So this language that we use now. And this third place that we're talking about is something that we really created for each other, and our friendship, and it just felt natural to start to bring these conversations to you all. Personally, I was raised in a home environment that really welcomed a lot of conflict resolution. I mean, we had unique things like family meetings where having a differing opinion, or having a different experience was given a space to be brought to the surface. And so with something that is very familiar to me, and very comfortable for me. And David, I know that while yours maybe didn't come from your home experience, it sure surely came from your experience in the Boy Scouts.
David : Yeah, many of these ideas are maybe often referred to as servant leadership, or at least that's, that's a lens, which I kind of see it and really learning how to lift someone up to aid learn who you are, right? Learn what your strengths and weaknesses are. But in doing so, learning the strengths and weaknesses of your team, the characteristics by which they receive and process information, you know, even if there's a strong overreaction, asking deeper questions. Okay, why did that person overreact? And how do I create this environment maybe where they won't over react again, in the future? Or, you know, again, like how do we create that safe place is something that I've wrestled with really, since kind of my forming years in high school when I was really starting to become a leader. And really, my whole adult life has been revolving around team work and leadership and building into those around me and it bleeds over into your personal life as well.
Mary : Yeah, you know, we can only be as helpful to those around us when we extend that same helpfulness to our relationship with ourselves. Right? So you know, what is the third place to dive a little bit deeper into why we dive so deep? It's that safe place that we keep referring to so that people can be authentic can be honest, and oftentimes, you'll hear us refer to it as the gray space or that in between space because what we've really noticed is that, you know, there's divisiveness all around us, we're divided internally, we're divided in relationships, we're divided as a country, we're divided in so many ways. And the work of the third place is encouraging, moving away from divisiveness and dualism. But finding digestible, approachable tools that give us generous perspectives that help us access empathy with opposing perspectives, and actions or experiences that may trigger us or feel unfamiliar or feel threatening. So it's the work of trying to move into a place that is going to give someone the benefit of the doubt, when it may be the hardest thing for you to achieve.
David : Yeah, and so much of our life, like, we refer to this often, as well, where, you know, all of our perspectives are just so limited. You know, I have learned and am learning even now, just with a lot of the conversations that we're having as a country around things like racism and gender gap, you know, what my role as a white middle class male brings to the table, and just even being aware that that perspective is limited, you know, that this this human experience? No one person can define it all, right, to be fully human is to look across the table and to ask, why does that person have that perspective, and that that perspective brings tremendous value to the conversation. So something I'll say often is, I'm pretty opinionated, you know, that I do come to the table with strong opinions, and I will fight my opinions. But because I have such a limited perspective, and I'm aware that my perspective is limited, I also have to come to that same table knowing that my strong opinions might be wrong, and for sure they're not complete, that their other side brings value to that perspective. And that many of the truths when we come together with these different perspectives, many, perhaps many life truths can be found then in this gray space, not all and we refer to this in our black, white and gray episode, that sometimes the truth do lie in the fringes. Like the example we used, you know, if love and hate are the opposite ends of a spectrum. The middle ground of tolerance is not where we know truth, the lie, we know that truth lies in love. So sometimes the truths are certainly found on the edges. But so many truths, when we can come together with all of our perspectives and knowledge, that the perspectives are deeply important to be fully human. And to be aware of our humanity is just the foundation of maybe bringing in some of these changes that we're hoping to see our society move towards.
Mary : Yeah, I love how you brought that up. Because I do want to remind everyone that it's not, okay, through this work, I must accept and believe and adopt someone else's perspective. Really, what we're saying here is that it's not this or that, or that it's this and that, that both of them provide texture to our human experience, and that we are complicated people. And so it's about celebrating the complication, celebrating the diversity of thought and approach and exploring it with curiosity and a beginner's mind, rather than suppressing or ignoring or aggressively having distaste for it. So I love that reminder that there are some truths found in the edges, but that this is merely an invitation to honor the complexity of being human.
David : Yeah. And you know, Mary and I both come from the natural food space, specifically in beverages and coffee is this global drink, it celebrates so many cultures, tea, where Mary comes from, same thing, just all these cultures and hands of the workers are all honored through the process, when it's done really well. And I think food is one of those spaces where we can be different and we celebrate those differences. I mean, what do we do when we go to an Italian restaurant, we're celebrating a whole group of people, and the way that that culture approaches food and so there's a beauty in the differences as well. And that's certainly part of the third place,
Mary : Right. And in this last year, it has become apparent to us that this is work that not only is near and dear to us, but that the work of the third place is really just beginning. And so in the coming years and especially in 2021, we intend to continue to go there to continue to go really deep and to talk about topics that oftentimes have this extreme connotation associated with it and how we can dive deeper into the why that is and combating it and finding purpose or meaning behind it.
David : Yeah, when I get excited about learning about topics, like, you know, so much of this is personal learning too right, it's not like they have the answers. But it truly is like, what does it mean to talk about healthy masculinity? How do I embrace that masculinity in a healthy way much more and the feminine spirit as well, talking honestly about fear, I think fear is an undercurrent that drives so much of our discord with one another at the moment. So let's talk about it, let's really go there. And maybe sometimes the conversations are going to be uncomfortable, but boy, I think that they're so necessary, and equipping
Mary : Right, and I think some other things that we're going to explore is setting healthy boundaries, as well, as a part of this work, you know, some things that we've considered talking about too, is the power of saying no how, how rest is best self worth in being not in doing so, just a little bit of a teaser about what's coming up for the third place and that we will continue to talk through topics that will hopefully inspire you or give you something that is digestible, that is what we call micro tools, oftentimes, that really mean that there's no excuse not to give it a try, and to see if it sticks.
David : Yeah, and the podcast is designed to be interactive, and we wanted to be interactive. You know, when we talk through a topic, we want to make sure that we're giving tools that are equipped for that specific topic. And you know, Mary already mentioned it, but really, this work is just beginning. So, specifically, for the next couple months in January, we're going to take a deep dive into self and being healthy. And a lot of that is so that we can be ready to go deeper. You know, we want to embrace this idea of being well, Mary says it at the end of every episode, be well, well if we're the healthiest versions of ourselves, and we can begin even the process of learning to love ourselves in a healthy way, then that's when we can pass that on to other people, that's when we foundationally can create the safety for others as well, to talk through the harder conversations and where we're planning to go in February is to really take deeper dives into racism in March to take deeper dives into healthy femininity and masculinity. Because those are two topics that are really weighing on our society now and we want to go, we want to go there.
[intro-music]
Mary : Right. So thank you so much for joining us on this journey. It is just the beginning. And you know, in order to keep doing this work, we just want you to be able to participate with us. And that means a few things, you know, sharing an episode if it speaks out to you, or reach out directly, and let us know, connecting with us on social, we're on Instagram actively at thirdplacepod. And you can email us at info@thirdplacepodcast.com with anything as well, you'll notice and you probably have noticed that we've had some of the most brilliant interviewees on our show to date and engage with them, you know, we bring them on because we want to share their genius with the world and this is a platform to do so to invite them into the third place and show how their work is an extension of the third place. So please engage with them as well.
David : Yeah, commenting on our episodes reviewing our episodes, I've had quite a few people say specifically about an episode whether it's someone I know and or in person and or email or text me just to say oh, my goodness, that episode spoke so much to me, you’ve got to get this out there and so I agree like that. But you know, please help us, please pass this on. We know that what we're working on is really impactful and we can't wait to see where it continues to grow and to have impact but the best way to do it is to share with someone so even as we're preparing for February's harder topics and March’s topics like by helping us build the audience. We can certainly add fuel to our fire. add fuel to our fire.
Mary : Yeah, yeah. And lastly, we are pretty stoked on the fact that we made a B wells swag line on a threadless shop. What does that mean? I can hear my mom being like what swag in the back of mind. Merchandise, to put it very basically. We have merchandise and we've made it so that it's fun for you to gift to yourself or to someone else and send us pics tag us participate in this movement of being well and residing within the third place.
David : Yeah, it's pretty fun. Everything from shirts and sweatshirts to bags to even mask, phone cases.
Mary : All the essential non essentials. And we'll leave you with that the rest of this episode is a highlight of the best of what we've manifested since we've started in only a short few months, including testimonials from those that have reached out to us directly telling us the impact of that episode. And some of the most powerful content from the episode as well. So very, very honored to share this with you and excited for you to be able to know what the third place is one quick little fell swoop.
David : Yep, this episode will embrace everything about what the third place is, what the topic sound like. And if you're going to share any one episode this year, this will be it.
Mary : Again, thank you so much and, most importantly, be well.
Unknown speaker : When you guys addressed what one associates with the word anger, the first thing that came to my mind was violence. My father was abusive and explosive, and had a very hard time managing his emotions. As I grew up into the woman I become I found myself exhibiting similar tendencies. And I really started hating myself for it. I was angry about my anger. But when you turn the definition around and challenged me to reconsider using anger for something good, I thought there was some hope. I was given permission to feel angry, as long as I was using it as a tool for change rather than a weapon or an emotion that intimidates others. I learned through working with a therapist, that all emotions have their place. We used imagery to help me work through that and identify all the feelings as if they were characters in a story, or people gathering around the table. I go through slowly, and invite each feeling to the table and allow them each time to communicate with me. I started to realize that many feelings I thought were anger were actually others, like guilt, shame, disappointment, or fear. But anger had trumped them all. And they just ended up expressing themselves all as anger. So it was helpful for me to visualize and ask myself, what am I truly feeling right now, when I do this, now, I understand that anger does have its place, but it doesn't have the right to speak for all the other emotions.
David : When I think about anger, one of the things I think about is like when I meet with a high school student or college student, or someone that is looking at a career change, the question that is most often wrestled with is like, what is it that you love to do? And then can go find something in that area? And I think that that's a great question and a powerful question. But an equally powerful and gritty question is, well, what is it that you hate? Because hate and love really are the same coin is just two different sides, right? There's nothing from the same place. So the passion of love, I think, is equal to the passion of anger, like love and anger are also this show that this passion can be tapped into. Earlier this year, I watched the documentary about Mr. Rogers. And near the end of that documentary, it was pretty quick. It was a pretty quick comment, but they said how angry Fred Rogers was in real life, right. And at that moment, I paused that and I rewound it and I played it again. And when they did that, like all of a sudden, it just felt like a wave of relief because I could completely relate. Like, I'm always the optimist. I'm always like, happy I'm always believed the best in people. But there's so much for the work that we do with coffee for the work that we do with I don't know immigration or like real social enterprise. using the tools of business to make the world a better place. Like that's kind of why I do coffee to begin with. All of that is really driven by anger. And I in that pause moment, like even just pausing at that moment, when I was watching the documentary, I stopped it just as just to stop and reflect for just a minute. I realized that I'm a really angry person so it never shows up in the traditional anger ways. Yeah, I don't hit people. I don't get into fights like but for me, it was a surprise and a little bit of a relief to like claim that anger and it helps me to tap into it more but knowing that I'm doing it in a positive way like I feel like I'm learning how to use that passion to truly bring real change. And that's what they highlighted in the documentary where, you know, here's Mr. Rogers, like, not quite Jesus, but just about as close as you can get. I mean, even the his kids said that, but driven by anger, like
Mary : When I watched that, too, I felt like, yeah, if someone that comes off to the world, and their work with the world comes off as like, utmost love, but then you learn that actually, what has inspired that action came from a place of anger, like suddenly you're like, Oh, I that is so relatable. And I didn't even know that maybe that's actually the match that lights my fire was coming from that place. Like I was telling you, I think earlier today, even that, I realized that in some of my readings on anger, that anger is a response, and that it comes from within, and that oftentimes, I think that we are misled thinking that anger is something that happens to us, not something that happens within us. And so it's interesting to realize that like, oh, anger is a response to something. So if you're recognizing that you're having that response, then that's coming from a place that you could tap into, and to know that it can transform into something so powerful, and so beautiful, is the thing that you and I are trying to like, invite people to explore. Because we've experienced it personally. And then even just in your Mr. Rogers story, I feel like it's the exact same thing. It's like the epitome of just saying like, oh, someone was super angry all the time, and they turn it into something really productive.
Unknown speaker : 2020 has been amongst many challenges a year of daily walks for me, particularly during our formats lockdown through winter in Melbourne. We had to stay within five kilometers of home. So inevitably, those walks became repetitive and monotonous. As much as I love being outdoors. So each fortnight when the third place podcast released a new episode, in went my headphones, and all of a sudden, that walk became more interesting. I used many of them as a time of deep listening and thought. Each podcast has had gems of insight that seem to be relevant to the current climate, useful in our daily lives, and helpful no matter what we are experiencing. The beautifully angry episode in particular really made me stop and take a hard look at my own behaviors. I've always considered myself a caring and compassionate person. And yet, I quickly realized after listening to this episode, that I still have work to do in this area. Even at the age of 52. I learned that it is not enough to try to empathize with someone's story, or to show them you understand by sharing with them your own story. For many, especially the middle to upper class white community, we can't ever truly empathize with those who have been marginalized for way too long. We might care and we might want to help bring change. But our stories are different, and more often than not endlessly easier. We therefore cannot possibly ever fully understand how the marginalized feel with any true depth. So I guess I've learned to listen more carefully, to take the time to allow the other person to really tell their story, to just hold space for them while they share their story of pain and anger. And then to be an ally to them by speaking up in their defense.
I've learned we need to be anti racist, rather than just saying I'm not racist. By listening fully to a story from someone else's perspective, we gain greater empathy and compassion. And by speaking out, we're helping bring about positive change in everyone's lives. Black, white, or gray. I've also learned we need to make true contact with vulnerable feelings, both in ourselves and in others to really experience a depth of compassion. Thanks to Mary and David. I've learned that true compassion feels so far beyond amazing that there are actually no words. It feels amazing, not only for the receiver of that compassion, but also and maybe even more so. For the giver. I've accessed an inner light I had not known before. And this change continues to carry me through this rollercoaster of life.
Mary : I think that sometimes I've confused that being an ally means that I need to empathize with people, which means I need to take on their experience and understand their experience. And I've actually started to shift in the last couple of days, or maybe even a couple of hours that empathizing and being an empathetic person has been something I've been very proud of. But I realized that right now, I don't want to negate or distract from someone else's experience by empathizing too much, that sometimes it is not mine to own, but it is mine to own how their experience has impacted my experience and vice versa. And what's more powerful sometimes than empathizing, because that cannot always be good for the party that's trying to empathize either. It's like why always take on what's happening around you? Why not? Instead, try to understand it, and try to hold space for it?
David : Yeah, that's definitely a tension, it feels like passive versus active again, one of my one of my coworkers and I were talking about this and, and I made the statement, I think it's true. One of the things that breaks my heart is that as a society, I think we've lost how to empathize. So I do think that empathy is really great quality and something you should be proud of. But it also is a little bit of a posture of passiveness where ally is much more active. It's kind of like I'm not racist, versus I'm anti-racist. So being an ally is much more active. It's taking that stand with someone, even if you don't, even if you can't empathize with them, you can still be that ally with that person.
Mary : Right because trying to empathize with let's say, it's a black woman, my same age, also a mother, but she is black and I am white. I can't empathize. I mean, truly, I cannot empathize. Right? I can sympathize. But it's been interesting to me to think about that word empathy and how I've felt like it's been such a such a gift, but also realizing that I don't need to assign my emotions around how the collective grief right now and the collective intensities impacting me, this is my opportunity to hold space. And this is my opportunity to educate myself as much as possible. And this is my opportunity to take ownership over my experience, and to then do what I can to do my own work so that I'm prepared in those conversations, and to also be prepared as a mother to teach my three year old son who's white, to be able to understand why he thinks the way that he does, and help him navigate a way to think that is more in the flow of where the pendulum is trying to find its new homeostasis.
David : Wow, well, obviously, again, heavy conversation, but like that word ally, in so many pieces of this conversation, do still bring me so much hope, I think we have an amazing opportunity to see real changes happen, we're seeing real changes happen right in front of our eyes. And Mary, I think that one of the biggest opportunities is exactly where you're at in life. And mine too, as parents like we get to invest into a generation that teaches ally ship from a very young age that teaches healthy racial dialogue from a very young age and my work and around the ideas of social enterprise like I so I get so excited and ramped up with hope, when I interact with the students that are in college today, because they believe in different ways of doing business and 1020 years from now they're going to be leading us and I can't wait. And I think that this is just another thing that they get to tackle and wrestle with, and, and there's really the start of a new age where we can see equal and different as being really good. I was on a call last week and they were like so many people started out 2020 like this, the 2019 was horrible, but 2020 is a year of vision. And there was so much hope and excitement and the reality is the first part of this year so far has been very, very heavy. And I in that moment was like you know, sometimes the clarity comes from the pain And so maybe 2020 is that year of vision, but we still needed to uncover so many issues, to really see what needed to be addressed. So maybe it's still a year of vision. But we had to go to a darker place to even see what needed to be addressed. I would love to end with a quote that I, I thought, because this year has been so heavy, again, it acknowledges the heaviness but also ends with hope from Sonya Renee Taylor. And she says, “We will not go back to normal, normal never was our pre Corona existence was not normal, other than we normalize, read, inequality, exhaustion, depletion extraction. We should not learn to return my friends, we are being given the opportunity to stitch an environment, one that fits all of humanity and nature.”
Sharon : Hi, my name is Sharon. And I recently listened to the third place Episode 14, I thought it was incredibly awesome. The premise behind the politicking and everything that we all think about, have had to deal with and need to go through in life, it was really refreshing to listen to this podcast with Mary and David, the gentle truth that they brought up that making America great again, doesn't always exist for everybody in this arena or this season that we've had. And that white privilege is real, it's a real thing. It was also refreshing to hear dialogue and honesty in such a productive way, in a way that people can come together in a in a way and hear and discuss in a positive way that's overall benefiting the group, the whole humanity, as they brought up in this podcast, I think it helps us to remember that humanity is valuable and worth the effort of working towards the greater and overall good. Politics is a word that does trigger many people. And as David said, our reaction to politics can produce a gamut of emotions based on how politics has affected us individually. Relationships between the words that are thrown around are not necessarily understood. And many of us really don't know the details of the two parties that exist in our government. And we could really benefit from just sitting down, talking about, looking into and discussing it. Mary points out how important it is to flesh out those relationships of people who think different from you. And to see that there's good there too.
David : Again, politics in its purest form is exactly the third place. Yeah, it's coming together with different perspectives, different needs, and making collective decisions that empower everybody involves
Mary : you're saying it's just how we relate with each other and how we connect, and I think that right now, most people would feel like relationship and connection is completely absent in the conversation around politics, or not completely absent, but definitely a pain point. And so it's just like, how can we reconnect and get things in in a more fluid way?
David : Yeah, not completely absent, it is actually destroying relationships or hurting relationships. Right? So the opposite of absent? Hmm. So, I think that for me, like it's, it's always like, how do we deconstruct all this and in the purest form, so that's why the word in its purest form, I think, is really good. Learning how to live together is really good. And I think where we see politics work really well is when it is in the background. When we turn on our faucet, and we get clean drinking water. That's a version of politics. When we drive over bridges. Our political system is what's designed to make sure those bridges are being tested on a regular basis that they're safe, and that they're maintained. And we don't even see the bridges anymore. All the bridges that we drive over every day, are functioning and it's because politics is working. So right now, all the things that we there's so much that isn't working. And that's why I think politics is really just so tense.
Mary : Especially when it comes to the topic of politics, we're being asked to be one or the other when there's just such a spectrum. I think it goes back to that you can be both and that's a lot of my frustration, David knows I've been talking about Brene Brown’s braving the wilderness book for the last couple weeks, like obsessively every day. It just touches on so much of this. And I encourage all of you to listen to it. It's really short audiobook, but she talks about like, it's just you can hear something about one side of a topic or have a perspective. And it can be true to you. But also the opposite can represent true to you as well. Like, one of the examples she brought up was like, okay, maybe a typical stereotype of a Republican, maybe that they are very greedy. I don't think that's exactly what she said. But then you have this example of someone that, you know, that is republican and exudes the total opposite. So it's like, it's just there's so many exceptions to this desire to try to make it so polarized and divisive, when in actuality, what if we could try and revisit the spectrum? And I think that's really hard and a two party system.
David : Well, and that is the thing, right. And again, we're going back to the root ideas of what the third place is, is, you're bringing your perspective, and I'm bringing my perspective, and they both have value.
Unknown speaker : 2020, what a year. The third place podcast has been an incredible resource for me through this tumultuous time, especially learning about the neuroscience behind the many emotions I felt this year. It's so helpful to understand the biology of what's happening as thoughts and feelings are racing through me. I've been able to adapt some of the learnings around having productive yet difficult conversations with those that love and care about my life, especially around the holidays this year. I've set a new intention to speak through difficult conversations and come from a place of understanding before judging someone based on their beliefs or thoughts. I think that while people say and do things that can be polarizing, we can't control anyone other than ourselves. And it's my personal responsibility to stay calm and composed so that we can have a productive dialogue versus divisive one. It's helped defuse many conversations I've had so far with people who I typically had an argumentative style conversation with most of my family. I feel so grateful for Mary, David and Sonam, sharing their insights in a practical and easy to understand way, it's really helped me grasp a concept that's been somewhat elusive in my life up to this point. And what they've shared has already helped me have more productive conversation with the people that I love, and have helped me find a common ground with relatives and friends who in the past, we've just agreed to disagree. So thank you guys. And I really enjoy your third place podcast.
Mary : What happens to someone when they feel like they're in a threatened state.
Unknown speaker : So if we kind of like look at the big picture, human beings by nature don't like confrontation. So when you look at evolutionary psychology, it's clear to see that one of the main principles that's helped us to survive as a species is really cooperation. So it makes sense that when it comes to having difficult conversations it makes us uncomfortable, and it's almost a visceral gut reaction. So when we look at how our mind works, it's broken down into kind of like two ways of processing, we have a two track mind, there's our conscious rational thought, that tends to be our deliberate high road. And that's where we have our more reflective and rational thinking. So we can call it our rational, cool brain. And this thinking takes place in the prefrontal cortex. But what many people don't realize or easily forget is that it's our unconscious mind or subconscious, if you prefer to call it that, that's actually 30,000 times more powerful than our conscious, rational thought. And this part of our mind is the automatic way of thinking, which tends to be entirely intuitive. So we can call this our emotional, hot brain. And this is where our feelings of fear, desire, anger, the urge to respond to something impulsively, come up. And this part of our mind often leads people to bypass the self regulatory controls, and self standards we have in place just when we need them most. And this is where the fight or flight response comes from. So when we look at the body's fight or flight response, this comes from the area of our brain called the amygdala, which is located in our temporal lobes. And it's part of the limbic system, which is our basil, primitive brain that's been around as long as human beings have been in existence. And basically these tiny almond shaped neurological structures show primary role in processing of memory, decision making, and our emotional responses like fear, anxiety and aggression. And this part is critical and responding to danger signals, like you mentioned Mary, preparing our body biologically to either fight or flee. But what happens when this fight or flight response is triggered by a stressful situation is that we get into the situation where we start to feel flustered and we have a physiological response. So when the amygdala is activated, it causes our body to release stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline. And then the cortisol increases our heart rate and blood pressure. And so we can feel our heart quit heart rate kick in, maybe we start to sweat a little we can feel our muscles tense up, our bodies retract, our pupils widen. And so the psychological feelings associated with these body changes or feelings, like it makes my heart race or I'm feeling choked up with rage or ready to vomit. And this all happens in such a short amount of time, that we're most often not even always consciously aware that this is occurring. And the real trouble begins when this starts to become a chronic thing. So when we find ourselves in situations that need to be resolved, but we hold on to the stress and tension versus engaging in healthy dialogue, we can start to develop chronic stress around these issues, which becomes a lot more problematic than just in the short term. So we really have to teach ourselves how to address things kind of as they come up, rather than holding on to this because it has some serious health issues around this response.
David : that's super fascinating. one of the questions that was coming up for me right when you started talking was, why is it that we avoid conflict like that was feeling something new to me? Like, I just assumed that that was a new question asked, I didn't think about it in the way of we always avoid conflict, or like just that dualistic thinking, I knew evolutionary wise, why we would want to do that, it's a survival mechanism. But I didn't think that that would translate to just this idea of, well, we don't inherently like to have conflict period.
Mary : I was baffled by the 30,000 times stronger. I'm sitting here thinking of so many times that I am in that state. And what happens for me, usually is like, I am not able to be fact based and hearing that you lose memory, and you know, all of these, like rational thinking, it makes so much sense because I feel like when I'm trying to speak my opinion, it's almost like I lose my opinion. And instead of being able to articulate it, it's like I go blank, even though I was so clear, maybe even just seconds prior.
Unknown speaker : Yeah, exactly. And that's your subconscious coming in, and your emotional, reactive side and emotions can be a really fun thing to look at, because they do cause us to kind of, you know, the rational thought goes out the window, sometimes when our body and our intuition kind of takes over. And we all experience emotions, but there's something that simply aren't talked about enough. And what happens in a lot of cases is that we try to push down our emotions through active suppression. And anyone who does this knows that trying to push something under the rug or not, or not bringing it to our attention actually doesn't resolve anything. And this is one of the reasons another interesting fact is that statistically, women get over breakups more quickly than men. Because they talk about it, they tell their best friend, they tell their mom, their neighbor, their hairdresser, their dog, and they're talking about it, they actually heal more quickly on average than men who most often keep their feelings suppressed in a lot of cases. So that's why it's important to kind of let it in and and sit with what you're feeling and acknowledge it so that you can start to make more informed and rational decisions.
Unknown speaker : I'm so glad I listened to your good grief podcast. There isn't a lot of space in our daily lives for grief or to share our pain, listening to y'all describe the losses you experienced, and the complex feelings around them was very healing for me. I lost a close friend recently and your words made me feel less alone.
Mary : Something that I thought just was like so necessary of thinking about that is important for those that are maybe trying to support someone grieving is to actually bring the person that they've lost or the topic or the concept whatever it may be, that has been lost up to say, Hey, I know that it is still with or within you, it doesn't. Like we said, it's not linear, it doesn't go away. And I think that as a culture, we could try and acknowledge it more rather than ignoring it and just letting it go away. Because, you know, the loss of my dad now sits with me, you know, the loss in your miscarriages and your, your stillbirth, they, they will sit with you. And so what is it like to acknowledge it, but not make someone uncomfortable, but that it can be both that we can still be existing and thriving, but that we can also still have a piece of us that is grieving. And that will always grieve and that just adds to who we are and the complexity of us as humans, but to not try to like make it go away, because it doesn't go away. And that's okay, too.
David : Well, as we bring this episode to a close, I wanted to share one of my favorite moments of 2020. After the election, we knew that we wanted to do something uplifting and a little bit lighter. And again, the common theme of so many of our episodes is how hard 2020 has been. But there's also many great stories of love and of hope. And those are stories that we wanted to share. And for me, the story from nithi Mehta, and her three children really just captured one of the most foundational principles of the third place and what it's about and what we're trying to achieve. Let's listen in
Nithi : My husband and I are parents to three 25 weekers. And when you're born that early, that small you face an innumerable amount of risks and challenges, feeding tubes, developmental delays, heart conditions to start the list. So that particular Sunday afternoon, the kids were sitting together for their snack like they always do. My son, we’ll call him Ali here. He was getting his 4pm g tube feed. Hermoine, his older sister, who we are attempting to wean off her feeding tube had a dry diaper, which meant that she hadn't really done a great job of hydrating herself. Out of nowhere, came an ear piercing cut wrenching scream of absolute pain from Olivia. It was so sudden and so shrill that it got any progressively quick reaction from my under caffeinated self. I disconnected Ali’s tube extension for a second and shuffled quickly over to Olivia tube and syringe still in hand. Olivia was lifting her shirt and holding her belly. Is your stomach hurting? Does it hurt here? I asked. No, no no. She screamed. Let me see, point to where it hurs, all the regular momisms. No, no piercing my ears yet again. Suddenly, I noticed something that wasn't pain in her voice. It was anger, sadness. Meturnpoo and belly meternpoo is a word that my in laws have passed down to my children that means water. She starts crying again and grabs Ali's tube extension out of my hand then proceeded to put the insert on her belly buttons still crying, pleading, meternpoo and belly. It was adorable. A heartbreaking and so telling of how we operate as humans. Olivia, our lone non-g tuber with the most honest sadness I have ever seen. cried as she tried to be a G tube kid, cried because she felt different. She felt left out and it broke my heart and at the same time put my heart back together again. See, I'd never even heard of a G tube before Hermoine’s NICU stay. Clearly I had my own bias and judgment simply due to my lack of knowledge and exposure. I feared how other kids quote unquote normal kids, ones without g tubes at least would react to or treat mine. And then here's a toddler who outwardly seems like a regular two year old who has been exposed to a G tube with her brother and her sister for as long as she can remember anything. And so she thinks it's normal. So normal that she wants one too. That Sunday brought two things to light. One. This is the most basic example of if we just keep sharing the things that make us quote unquote different, exposing them, educating on them, letting them be observed openly and as a regular part of everyday life. And while maybe those differences won't be so scary to others, but instead they'll pique curiosity. And ultimately, the thing we all want acceptance different, does not mean less. two, representation matters. Not being around any kids other than her siblings due to the pandemic, Olivia didn't remember that there are non tubey children, a plethora of them running around the world. She thinks she's alone, a minority, when really, there are so many more people out there just like her the majority, in fact, more than her current situation would have her believe. As parents, especially as parents of children with medical needs, it's so easy for us to also feel alone, to forget that we're not alone. It's so easy to forget, especially during this pandemic. But there are so many others like us out there who empathize and sympathize how lucky I was that Sunday, to spend it with my children, to be reminded by a two year old of how important it is to be open. And to share, share, share. So at some point, quote, unquote different, just means an opportunity to teach or learn so that different doesn't mean alone. It means beautiful.
David : When I first heard the story, it honestly brought me to tears. And I rewound it and it brought me to tears again. It so captured one of the most foundational principles of the third place. That difference is beautiful. That we don't always have to see eye to eye. But when we put ourselves in someone else's shoes, when we can look at each other, like through the eyes of a child, and just want to love and be loved. That moved me. So we close 2020 and we're really appreciative of all that have been involved, I want to thank all of our great guests who have been on with us to share their stories to share their brilliance. I want to thank Mike Gaines, who wrote and composed our opening and closing music. I also want to thank Sveta Ovchinnikova, who has helped us with so much of the behind the scenes work of marketing and our social media engagements. And thank you to the listener, for so many of you who have engaged with us who have listened to the insights who have shared our podcast episodes with other people, and who have just let us know that this work means something. Anytime you start something new, you're not sure if it really is going to make a difference. And it is very clear that this work is making a difference in people's lives. And we hope to just continue to grow into that and really look forward to what 2020 can bring. still going to be a hard year, we still have a lot of work ahead of us. But there is this momentum and there's this collective universal energy that we feel really tapped into with you as we continue on in this journey of the third place and embracing that idea, that different is beautiful. Be well everyone!
