Ep 21 - Candid Conversations About Grief with Gabrielle Birkner and Marisa Renee Lee

Join us as we welcome two powerful guests, Gabrielle Birkner and Marisa Renee Lee, in our first interview to unpack the heavy topic of grief. Both of them candidly share their stories of loss and how it has impacted the way they lead their lives and their work today. This episode is a breath of fresh air for those who have suffered deep loss this past year, or ever.

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David : As we continue our series on grief and take a deep dive into this topic, we want to take a moment to thank covituary.org for sponsoring this series. Covid-19 has altered the world in ways no one could have imagined. With each passing day, we're coming to terms with more aspects of life that have changed. Never in our lifetime have we been forced to postpone funerals and memorials for those we love and those who were taken too soon. The covituary website is designed to be a place to commemorate those lost in the pandemic who weren't able to have a proper memorial. Losing a loved one at any time is extremely difficult, but even harder during the pandemic without the support of friends, family and community. Let us celebrate the lives of those loss and let covituary.org be a place where they will forever be remembered.

[intro-music]

Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place with us.

David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.

Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.

David : Thank you for listening.

Mary : We invite you in to the third place.

David : Well I know one of the reasons I'm personally eager to share our three interviews on grief is because not only were each of them just valuable in sharing their personal experience with grief, but also with what they made of it. Today's episode features Gabby co-author of a book on grief and Marisa contributor to the book. This Friday, you will hear from Gina, a psychotherapist that specializes in grief. And next week, our conversation with Emily who is the founder of Move Through Grief. 

Mary : All of them were super generous in pulling together things that they thought would be helpful to someone that could use extra support in grief over 2020. So out of that, like we told you last week we are doing our first giveaway we are calling it the good grief giveaway and includes something from each one of our interviewees over the next couple of weeks. You can find more details on how to enter and how to win on our Instagram page at thirdplacepod. But just so you know what's included, it's about a $750 value. It includes an eight week online course completely free and complimentary from Emily, the founder of move through grief, a copy of the book Modern Loss, a one on one coaching session with our grief expert and psychotherapist Gina, as well as a bag of artisan coffee or tea with a mug from La Terza coffee. We are really, really grateful to everyone that's contributed to this. And looking forward to supporting and grieving all that has unfolded in 2020. 

David : Yeah. So very, very special. And again, thank you so much. So let's listen with Gabby and Marisa. Well hello, everyone. Welcome to the third place podcast. Today we have two guests that I'd like to introduce, who will help us begin the journey of unpacking our grief. Gabrielle Birkner is co-founder of Modern Loss and co-author of the book Modern Loss: Candid Conversations about Grief, Beginners Welcome. She's a journalist based in Los Angeles and we'll hear her story here in a moment. But just an unbelievable resource for those that are struggling with grief and loss, especially with unexpected grief and loss. Along with Gabrielle we are joined by Marisa Renee Lee. Marisa is the founder and CEO of beacon advisors, which she established after leaving President Obama's My Brother's Keeper alliance with the purpose of empowering a variety of institutions on matters of organizational development and growth, private public partnership strategies and operational efficiency. She also advises a variety of philanthropic and corporate clients on racial and gender equality, criminal justice reform, and education reform. She has worked with Gabrielle on the modern loss project and comes to it with some very personal stories as well. So let's welcome Gabrielle and Marisa. 

Mary : Welcome. We're so excited to have two guests that are very special to us and that we have recently just met but it's Marisa and Gabby. And I would love to really just dive in because we're talking about a topic that is often uncomfortable for people that tends to be everything that we do on the third place is about uncomfortable topics. But this one, especially, you know, we're diving into grief. And I'd love to get some context, you know, Marisa and Gabby, what has and is your relationship to the world of grief personally, and then also professionally?

Marisa : Excellent. Thanks so much for having us on to talk about this today. I am someone who gets described as being obsessed with grief. But in a good way, I'm still figuring out what that means. But in terms of my personal relationship to grief, when I was 25, I lost my mom to breast cancer. She'd been sick for about half of my life at that point with a combination of MS and cancer. And she and I were incredibly close, because in addition to having her as a parent, you know, I also serve as a part of her caregiving team. And so when she died, you know, I felt like I was prepared. I had read a bunch of articles, you know, I read Elisabeth Kubler Ross's, On Death and Dying, you know, I'd had some hard conversations with my mom, I had a spreadsheet with all the funeral arrangements, and you know, who she wanted to give which one of her stuffed animals to, you know, I was ready. Except I wasn't, because preparing for someone to physically die is very different from dealing with grief, which I have now come to define as the repeated experience of figuring out how to live in the absence of a significant loss. And it was, honestly only in the last couple of years that I came to just really clearly define what grief is for me, because my husband and I, last summer actually lost a pregnancy, which then put me back in this space of grief and thinking about, you know, what it means and how it really works. And, you know, that's the perspective that I am bringing to the conversation today. You know, grief is not about time of death, as much as it is about figuring out you know, how you're going to live your life after you lose someone you love.

Mary : Beautiful, and how old were you? Can I ask when you lost your mom? 

Marisa : 25

Mary : Okay. And so Marissa, how did you come to know Gabby?

Marisa : So I came to know Gabby, through a mutual friend who is a part of a club that I refer to as the half orphans society. Our friend, Christina and I, we were on a panel together at South by Southwest. And I happen to mentioned to her that I wanted to try and write more about, you know, losing my mom and how that experience has shaped me. And she immediately introduced me to Gabby. And at the time, Gabby was putting together the modern loss book. We met about a week later. And instantly, I decided Gabby was going to be one of my people. She didn't know that, you know, I didn't want to come across as a total weirdo. But that's what I decided then. And she's been stuck with me ever since. 

Mary : I love that. I love that. So Gabby, you started modern loss? And yeah, What's your relationship personally into grief and beyond?

Gabby : So I'm the co-founder with Rebecca Sofer of modern loss, which is a digital storytelling platform about living with loss. And while I acknowledge and validate that there's like a range of experiences that fall under the banner of loss, divorce, estrangement, it can be abuse our website, when we talk about loss, we're talking about physical death, the death of a parent, a sibling, a child, a spouse, a pregnancy, a friend, anyone you loved, or in the gray space in the third place, anyone who had a complicated relationship with. In 2018, we came out with a book of essays, as Marisa mentioned, in which Rebecca and I tell her own personal stories about loss. And we also publish essays for more than 40 contributors spanning five continents. And among our wonderful contributors is Marisa. And, you know, luckily, we were connected through our friend, Christina Lewis, who was actually there with me on the night I got the worst news I'd ever hear. And so my interest in loss stemmed from a very personal loss, and it was the aftermath of the loss of my father and stepmother. In 2004, shortly after I finished college, my dad and stepmother were killed in a home invasion in Sedona, Arizona. And the aftermath was just a very lonely experience. Not because people who loved me like didn't try their best, but because it's really hard to know what to do for someone who has experienced loss, especially in such a traumatic way, most of my friends, like weren't in that half orphans club. Most of my friends hadn't lost parents at you know, 24, 25, let alone known anyone who had been killed by violence. And then in the aftermath, Rebecca and I really Rebecca, who lost her mom, a few years later, in a car accident, we struggled just to find resources that spoke to us online as young adults. And so it was one of those, like, be the change you want to see in the world moments. And we decided with like, 20 years of media experience that we were going to come together and create this platform. And it was a little bit like throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing if it stuck, and, you know, seven years later, I'm happy or sad that so many people have so many sad stories, but happy that it did, and we've been a community, you know, online and in real life for for people who are living with the long arc of loss. 

David : Yeah, I mean, that's amazing. And I think that really was what I'm excited about. To have community surrounding loss. Like Marisa, I immediately connected to you, because, you know, I have a three year old and a one year old, but prior to that we had three pregnancies including a stillbirth loss, you know, and so even the first miscarriage was like, does anyone else do this, you know, and we were very private, it felt right to be private about it, but felt wrong at the same time. And eventually, we were open about it. And then especially with the stillborn loss after that, much more like my wife had a baby bump, like there was clearly a loss here. And the baby had to be delivered. But at that moment, a lot of people came forward. And to say, yes, we've had this too. And then you read the stats, like one in four pregnancies is this kind of trauma, and then to be surrounded by community, and not even that we could figure it all out? As much as just to know that we weren't alone. Yeah. So creating the community, Gabby, it's just a beautiful approach. 

Gabby : Thank you so much for sharing your story. And it's so sad to hear that you and your family went through that,

Mary : you know, in creating community, because I feel like there's been such a greater need for community, especially in 2020. And that the loss has been we talked about how a loss, there's a lot of the physical death loss that you guys have mentioned. And then there's sort of the secondary loss of all the other things that you're you know, well, modern loss is not specific to the physical loss. There's the secondary effect of the loss of expectations that we have for 2020, the loss of jobs, the loss of connection, and friendship and community. And now I'm wondering, has modern loss had to adjust to that greater demand at all as a result of that? Or is it still really sort of satisfying that community need, even when it seems like grief is just like, exponentially greater beyond physical right now? 

Gabby : I think right now, with what we're all going through, really, as a planet, the experience of loss is something we can all feel like we have a claim to. And so many people when you talk about the loss of a job, or the loss of a home or stability or health, you know, all these people are experiencing, what I would call symptoms of grief, things that I experienced while I was grieving my father and stepmother, there's that clear before and after. They may be more distracted, they may be tired or angry or nostalgic. And I think that while we can acknowledge that, yes, we are all grieving something right now. I really think it's important that we shouldn't lose sight of the people who've actually experienced loss of a loved one, to COVID or to something else. Because anyone who has experienced loss during this time hasn't necessarily had the communal support that they would have during normal times. And they might not have been able to say goodbye in the same way. And at the same time when the scale of the loss is so large, we're talking about more than 250,000 Americans who died. We can't let that scale I feel like enorus to what's happening to each and every person who is grieving. And right now, millions of people are grieving and I believe that this grief pandemic is going to far out last the coronavirus pandemic, absolutely. It's a global tragedy but like no one wants their loved ones to be remembered as one of many, or as part of just a mass casualty event, they want their loved ones to be remembered for who they are. And what we do on modern life is tell these very personal stories that anyone who's experienced loss to COVID, or to anything else can read, there's a kernel in it that everyone can relate to. And as the grief expert, David Kessler has said, the greatest loss is always your own. So even if the scale is global, I feel like we are keeping our eyes on the very personal nature to each and every person who has lost someone to this pandemic, or during the time of this pandemic, when they haven't had the support that they might otherwise have. 

Mary : So yeah, I mean, I appreciate you bringing that up. So I lost my father, the last week of March. So it was just, 

Gabby Oh, my God

Marisa  Recent, oh, my goodness, 

Mary : It was not COVID. But it was a part of that time. So what I've been told about a normal experience of loss, unexpected loss would be, you know, gathering and ease that maybe would have come in, I mean, the visual that is stuck in my head, but we actually took a photo of to commemorate was, you know, I'm one of five, but four of us siblings happen to be in the area at the time, and we, you know, sat 10 feet apart in a parking lot, just because the shock of it, like, how can we be together, right. And, you know, in one of our previous episodes, so we sort of like just David and I talk about things, and then we like to bring on experts. And when we were really digesting some of this, I was just saying that I feel like I pushed pause on grief, because that was the only way that I was allowed to was just like, there, you just, you couldn't gather you couldn't have community, you couldn't have it in a normal way. And so, a lot of what I've decided to do in the last couple of weeks is to say that I'm pushing start and allowing myself to go there. And, you know, I think that selfishly, that's a little bit of inspiration as to having conversations is that it's also serving my grief process and reminding myself of the early stages that I'm in as well. And just, it is so collective, like you said, Gabby that like someone like myself, like I can feel like the collective intensity of it, that it can distract from that personal grief. And you can forget, because it is sort of just like, lumped into the time everyone was going through so much shit. Like my dad dying was like just another thing. 

Marisa : Yeah, it's your dad

Gabby : I'm so sorry to hear that you experienced that. And at such a hard time when you couldn't reach out in the same way and people couldn't reach back in the same way. But it's so important to remember, I love that idea of like pressing start, like I decided I'm going to press start on my grief. And you can do that throughout your life. I always tell people that we started modern loss, almost 10 years after my father and stepmother were killed in the robbery. And for most of those 10 years, I didn't know how to honor their memory or to honor my grief. And the good thing to know is that you can press start, whenever you want. And it's never too late to honor someone. You know, it doesn't have to happen even if it can't happen right now, if you can't have memorials, and you can't gather in the same way, there will be a time you and hopefully not in the too distant future that you will be able to do those things and you will be able to remember and grieve in the way maybe you had imagined doing so. And you know that that's calling out to you.

David : That whole conversation made me, and Gabby what you said to that the this grief, it will far out last where we're at with COVID it does make me think that there's this play and pause of when we do get to normal life again, you know, post vaccine and we can all start to gather there will be this just waves and waves of waves of people pushing pause intentionally or unintentionally all over again. And I mean, I do have hope that that would be in a healthy way so that we can actually gather for real and to celebrate all these lives that we've lost so

Marisa : And I think it's important for people who have experienced loss in this time where you have Mary, that they feel entitled to take that time. You know, like one of my biggest personal fears is that, you know, I will lose one of my grandparents during this time. They are 97 and 99. And you know, my grandmother is still being bossy and celebrating the Biden Harris victory, and she's completely out of control. But she's 97. And I just looked at what it would look like

David : she doesn't listen to podcasts does she because I..

Marisa : If she knew what they were, I’m sure she would be down. She's so out of control, she puts on hat parades, like from her porch, in upstate New York, and people drive by and honk at her like, it's a whole thing. You know, my grandparents next week, knock on wood, assuming they're both still here, will be married for 81 years, like losing one of them during this time. It's like, my palms are sweating right now just thinking about it. Because I know that I wouldn't be able to access the things that I was able to access when I lost my mom. So I really, really want to push for folks, like you, Mary to like, take whatever you need, as soon as you're able to access it and don't feel bad about it. 

Mary : Well, I love that you mentioned that. And thank you because I think that half of what I've tried to encourage, you know, since I've joined the loss of a parent club, right, such a fun club. Is that I want people to feel like we can greet it over and over again. And you said something so perfectly where you said that grief is? How, can you say that one more time?

Marisa : I'll try. For me grief is the repeated experience of figuring out how you're going to live in the absence of someone's loss, like you have lost something very significant. So it isn't the Oh, you know, my mom just died. We had the funeral. I'm sad. It's three months later, and I'm still sad. But a year I could feel better and be fine. Like, that's not actually how it works. Like, how it works is, you know, everything that has been significant and some things incredibly insignificant, force me to reckon with, like, what is my life going to look like without this person who had such an impact on me. And even in the pregnancy loss space, there have been these little things unexpectedly that I've had to reckon with, you know, whether it's cleaning out some boxes in the attic, you know, finally listening to my husband and doing what he has asked for months, and coming across, like these little hoodies that we had in the White House gift shop when I worked for President Obama. And like knowing that I bought this hoodie for a baby that's like still not here. Or, you know, trying to figure out like, how do I bring joy back into Christmas? When my mom who was literally the queen of Christmas, she was completely out of control, similar to my grandma, is no longer around, like, what does that look like? And now this year, having to think, again, like how to recreate a joyful holiday season, you know, knowing that my dad's going to do Thanksgiving this year by himself, because that's the safest thing to do. Um, so it's the constant, figuring out how to live a full life with absence. 

Mary : It's like, I feel like you're giving permission to the endurance of grief. Like, there's, I've so often felt like I'm supposed to, like, be through it. And yeah, fuck that. That doesn't exist. It took me some time, though to, I mean, I'm only six or seven months in, but that I think that so often, what I want to do and what I feel like what you just said is that you are giving permission to that it's not something to move through. It's something to live with. 

Marisa : Yes, exactly. And I will say Mary, for you, like from my perspective, your dad basically died five minutes ago. And so the other thing that I will say, and Gabby and I have talked about this before with grief, you know, there may be days where you are your normal rock star, perfect 10 version of yourself. And then the very next day, you may just feel like the only thing you can do is watch Netflix on your couch and like eat a bag of Doritos like that's okay. So whatever it is what I have come to understand, like, it is all okay, you know, no matter what you're feeling, feeling like you're making progress and then getting pulled back like that's okay. 

Gabby : Yeah, in the modern loss book, we have the illustrated glossary and two of the entries. They actually ran as an excerpt in the New York Times., minus the word fuck. But one of the entries is closure, a myth perpetuated by people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. And then another thing that just speaks to what you were saying Mary, and Marissa too, cleaning out the attic and finding these hoodies, “Monday a seemingly innocent day disguised just like any other, but you still feel the loss. And if it doesn't fall on a holiday or any other notable date, people might forget that.” 

Mary : And it's almost like, if it falls on a holiday, then you're allowed to, to go there, when in actuality, just like what you said, it's the littlest thing. Suddenly, I had a moment the other day where there was zero trigger, and suddenly I felt an absence of being able to breathe. Right. And I think I'm curious, both of your take on what I feel like is a byproduct of grief, which is, you know, I'm so familiar with as a mom is the guilt of grief. And have you experienced the guilt of still being in grief ever, or that your grief is negatively impacting a friendship or a relationship because it may come up, it's spontaneous, it's unexpected. It's all the things that are inconsistent, right? And I think relationships thrive on consistency. So just wondering what your take on guilt, the guilt byproduct potentially is, and the inconsistency of it. 

Marisa : Yeah, I've definitely experienced this, in part because, you know, I feel like especially during my early grief, I was very up and down. And I could perform perfectly in one day, and then be a complete mess the next day, or even later, the same day sometimes. So I was absolutely an inconsistent friend and person to be around. And I felt guilty. I also realized, reflecting on this recently, there was like, a sense of shame and embarrassment, like, why am I still in this place? Why can I function, you know, this is completely ridiculous. Like, even I can see that I'm being completely ridiculous, but also feeling like, I didn't know what to do about it. And of course, now I know that, that's grief. And it's all perfectly reasonable. But at 25, I didn't know shit. So you know, what I would say now, also, having been in the position of supporting my husband through something that he's been grieving, and, you know, being on the other side, is to just be as upfront as you can with the people who you care about, about what you're going through. But don't spend a ton of energy on it, like your grief is what requires your energy right now. And if you want to get to a place where, you know, you really do feel whole, even in the midst of this loss, you have to attend to your grief, like that has to be your number one priority, not protecting someone's feelings, because I will tell you, there's really only one relationship from that period of my life, that, you know, now we can both acknowledge as the older people that we are, you know, we made mistakes, but everybody else is still here. And, you know, they still love me just as much. And so I know I picked the right people. So like, if your people are your people, they'll stick it out, even if, you know, you feel like you're maybe not being the best friend, you know, partner, etc. 

David : Yeah, it feels like you know, I mean, obviously, no one wants to go through something that would then cause the emotion of grief or the work of grief. Yet we all experience loss and death. And so grief gets this negative, it's so much of the negative but it literally is so much. It's something everybody experiences. So like we don't want to necessarily like embrace is like the wrong word. We don't want to, maybe it is the right word, like run towards what grief is, but how do we approach grief is something to embrace and see as good or is there even a way to see the grief process is something really good? 

Gabby : I mean, I do think that there is and I think that it's happening. I remember when Rebecca and I were first starting modern loss before it had launched, friends and acquaintances would ask us what we've been up to. And they always seemed a little creeped out when we said we were working on this site about grief and loss. And we tried to reassure them like no, it's not like that. It's gonna keep it real. It's gonna be funny. It's about storytelling. If you lost someone, if you ever lost someone, if you ever wanted to support someone who has or hey, you just appreciate really good narrative writing the site will be for you. But I really think it needed to be out in the world for people to really get what we were trying to do. And I think the good news is that the notion that grief is something that needs to be kept under wraps that needs to be private, that needs to be, you know, it's something that we shouldn't be talking about. I think that you know, that needs to be moved on from in three or six months or whenever someone else calls time on your grief. I think that's been changing dramatically in recent years. Megan, the Duchess of Sussex, wrote today about a pregnancy loss in New York Times, opening up again the conversation about grief and loss. And indeed, I think a lot of the innovation in the end of life and grief space, not exclusively, but a lot of it has been done by women. And I think of Marissa who started her site supportal, I think of Caitlyn Dodi who does a lot of work around end of life and burial. I think of Shoshana ungerleider, who runs the endwell conference, I think of Dr. Jessica Zucker, who runs that I had a miscarriage campaign. I think that the conversation in recent years and I hope modern loss has been a small part of it has really opened up. I think we are talking about it more. We are talking about it with less shame. And I think that's a really good thing. 

Mary : So why would you? Why do you think it's women? 

Marisa : I mean, come on, we’re better at everything, sorry David

Mary : I just want to hear you say it. Marissa, I just see it to hear you say it. 

David : I embrace my feminine spirit. I would answer the question because women overall, you talk about emotions, you talk more, you know, and it's okay to talk about emotions. Marisa later I want to, and maybe not even today want to talk about your work with young black men. Right. But I think that masculinity we are taught there was this documentary, and it just so brilliantly said, the four most destructive words for young men to hear are “Be a man” or three words, be a man.

Gabby : Thank you. Thank you. I have two boys. And one of his friends said to him, I guess he did something you didn't like he said Be a man. And I said you better go right back to him and say be a feminist. Yeah.

David : I'm with you on that. But yeah, and I have two young boys too. I mean, yeah, we're off topic but

Mary : No, no, not really, because it's all connected. I mean, it just is like, to me, I feel like what I'm hearing is that the feminine spirit has the capacity to surface things that are uncomfortable, and that through the support of a feminine approach, it gives that permission, it gives that safe space, it gives that container that can make it that it's okay to go there and know that you're going to be okay, and that there's not going to be repercussions for that. 

Gabby : I want everyone to have that societal permission. And I think like having Joe Biden in the White House, someone who experienced grief, and has talked about it and has written about it, and has stood in front of the Democratic National Convention and said, you know, quoted Hemingway and said, the world breaks everyone. And you know, some of us are stronger in the broken places. And then he said, I'm stronger in the broken places. I think that's going to be a game changer for our national conversation around grief and loss and living with it in perpetuity. As long as we live. We know we carry it. 

David : Well, and yeah, I mean, that was one of my next question, really, I'm curious to know what societal grief looks like and how that can be healthy. Like, like, with George Floyd's death, we finally talked about something right. And it's not that, that his death was the first of its kind, but it was the first to happen and get at least some attention or appropriate attention to that. And there's grief. And we're in I think, in COVID times is still like we said earlier, we're kind of grieving, but we're not quite kind of grieving. And we really need to go back to that and grieve it when we're through all this and in the middle of all this. But I'm just so relieved. I mean, personally, right. I'm personally relieved that Biden has won. But I also like the work is just beginning. And that's the work of this third place. Like we've got to figure this out. We've got to figure out how to talk to each other and my heartbreaks. 

Marisa : Yeah, I mean, I think the President Elect is honestly one of the most perfect people on the planet to guide us through the next four years. I have spent time with him. I've gotten to see him interact with people who have experienced loss. You know, I've gotten to hear him in, you know, smaller, more private settings, talk about the things that have happened to him. And I've seen up close, like how he treats people. And it just feels so good in my heart to know that he is going to be the person in charge, because he knows a loss, honestly better than most of us. And I say that as someone who's experienced multiple losses, including a cousin to COVID, a month ago, but Joe Biden, when you think about everything that he has lost over the course of his life, it's like, what and what he has done with his life as a result, like, he is the embodiment of compassion and empathy. And, you know, I can go on and on and on. But I really do believe that he is going to find a way to ensure that we hold space for grief and for healing and for recovery. And that we don't just blow by the fact that, you know, we've lost over a quarter of a million Americans. 

David : Yeah, I read just the other day. And it was like, very, for me very thought provoking that, you know, here's someone who has run for president in the past. And here he is, like, going to be the oldest president ever to take office. But he is going to be the president at the exact right time to have a leader like that, that has experienced loss, and then carry the baton to help us all heal through these quarter million and who knows how many will be 60 days from now? 

Mary : I feel like what I'm hearing is that Biden, he emulates channeling grief into something, right. So this podcast was birthed out of, just a month after my dad passed. And to me, it's been one of the first or most potent versions of creativity that I've ever experienced. And I feel like grief exposes so much, but it also is, can be life giving. I mean, maybe that's like, crazy or controversial. It's clarifying. And it does have an, you know, everything's in a transfer of energy. That's something that I believe, and I feel like the transfer of energy and loss and death does actually create energy and its own right. I'm wondering like for you each personally, I mean, clearly, modern loss is a result of grief. You know, something that David Kessler said that I loved on his podcast with brene brown recently was, you know, how they added the meaning portion to grief? And then it wasn't about that, that someone had to die physically or that grief had to happen physically in order to create meaning, it was the meaning prior, and then the channeling, that sort of is like the undercurrent that comes through. And I'd love to hear you know more about how, just like, what it feels like Biden is doing, how has grief channeled into something that has felt positive or provided clarity for either of you.

Marisa : Yeah, I mean, on my end, I started a breast cancer nonprofit, because my mom was sick. And I had a lot of anticipatory grief about her death. And I needed to do something, you know, it was one night in New York, came home from a happy hour, watched an episode of Grey's Anatomy, where one of the characters was operating on his father, and the guy had cancer and turned out and it was just like, all inside of his body. And I was like, Oh, my God, that's what's happening inside of my mom's body. And I lost it a little bit. But then I woke up the next day and said, Okay, what can I do? You know, I'm terrible at science. I am not the kind of person who anybody would want to have as a social worker, or a nurse or a doctor or any of those things. But I'm good at throwing parties. And I'm relatively shameless. So like, I'll just throw a party and raise money for breast cancer, that then became a nonprofit that's still around today that I no longer have to manage, thankfully. And then the story that I wrote for modern loss is all about how, you know, being with my mom in the months leading up to her death, splitting my time between my childhood home and you know, my job on Wall Street and just feeling very torn. And like, I was not only missing out on my life in that moment, but I was missing out on this bigger thing that was happening in the country. And, you know, this opportunity to work for this black man who was running for president, and then she died. And that's what I ended up doing. Because again, I was shameless. And there was something about my grief at a certain point, even as I was still sorting through all of these feelings, where I just started to feel entitled, like, what's the worst thing that can happen? Nobody hires me? whatever 

Mary : It is like cutthroat, you're like, well, you don't know accept me, or it's like, yeah, well then screw you, I experienced a lot of that like intense boundary setting as a result, that suddenly my opinion is the only opinion. And suddenly my feeling is the only feeling and that grandiose nature is unfamiliar to me. But it also is like, I needed some of that instead of being the sort of total people pleasing self, like being more unapologetically myself, and I've recognized that as well in the process of loss. 

David : Gabby, I'd love to hear you answer that question, too. 

Gabby : Yeah, well, when Marisa said, you know, she's not a social worker. And again, I wasn't a therapist, I wasn't a you know, I hadn't studied grief and loss. But I think there were two things that there was, you know, where was the whitespace in the universe that needed to be filled? And what were my skills to help fill it? And I know that in the aftermath of losing my father and stepmother in such a horrible way, I really struggled to find resources and writing that spoke to me. And as a journalist, and Rebecca is also, she went to Columbia Journalism School, and had worked as a producer for the Colbert Report. And we thought, okay, we have this media experience, could we create something that we would have wanted, you know, 10 years before for me, you know, about seven years prior for her? And, you know, I think grief really lowers the threshold for bullshit. And in some ways, you realize, what's the worst that can happen? Because the worst has already happened. So exactly, you're willing in some ways to go for it to try to realize that even the worst case scenario and in, you know, launching something that doesn't stick, it's really not that bad, all things considered having lost your person or your people. 

Mary : I love that what's the worst that can happen? Because the worst has already happened? 

Marisa : Yeah, let's think about what you've just gone through. Losing parent in the middle of a fucking pandemic. Yeah, terrible. 

Mary : Yeah. And, you know, he could have probably gotten help, but he was nervous to go in at the time, it was the intensity of everything that was going on, you know, going to a hospital as a 71 year old, that, you know, you, all we were being told was of high risk. And so, you know, there is something that I that brings up as I even talk about it is like, anger is obviously a stage and anger, I felt anger for some of the first time in my life in the last six months, and it's so visceral, and it's like, can be very ugly. And there's no tact that I have, that's for sure. But I've also noticed that I have some anger around not being able to have grieved in a quote, unquote, normal way. And then the other anger comes with that I don't, on many occasions feel like some of my community was able to show up for me in the way that I would have hoped. And that's actually not their fault, right? There were so many things that wouldn't have even allowed them to show up for me physically or emotionally. And I'm wondering, like, you know, with both of your experiences, it wasn't amidst a global pandemic. But can you sort of touch on your experience of anger? And how that textured your grief too?

Gabby : Yeah, I mean, obviously, in the aftermath of my father and stepmother after they were killed, I was really angry at a lot of things and a lot of people. And it felt like in some ways, the anger was directed not towards the person who did this. They had had a plumber in their home some weeks prior, who was in prison for 10 years and out only for a couple weeks when the plumbing company sent him to their house. And somehow I didn't direct the anger towards the company that sent him or the person who did it. But at the people who were close to me that I feel like weren’t showing up for me and I was really stewing in that for a long time until I really came to understand and this was years out. I mean, that I really needed to tell people what I needed. I could either stew in those feelings of anger that they hadn't done what I had wanted them to do, or they didn't intuit exactly what I needed at any given moment, and how could really any 24 year old know what to do if their friend had lost parents to homicide. I could tell them what I needed and give them the opportunity to show up for me. And obviously, that's really difficult right now. But again, it's never too late, the grief you will live with for the rest of your life. And you can also take that memorialization and be allowing people to show up and the honoring of the legacy of the person who died. You can carry it forward, you know, years, decades, well beyond this pandemic. 

Mary : Yeah. So being explicit is just..

Gabby : being explicit because it was super idiosyncratic what I needed to like one day, I had my friend bring over celebrity weeklies, and like, time me doing the crossword puzzle. But there was no way if I had..that is so specific, you know, but there was no way she could have known what I needed in that moment. Like, and it was not was clearly like a mental escape. Until I asked for what I needed. And so much of the not showing up. And you know, not knowing what to say doesn't come out of malice, but it comes out of not knowing what to do, and being afraid of sitting in that awkward silence. And the best thing you can do is sit through that because as awkward as it is for you, the person who is trying to comfort someone who has lost someone, it is so much worse, what they are going through something so much more intense. So the best thing you can do is sit with them and endure those silences and keep listening and keep showing up and keep following up and keep following through. 

Mary : so what would you say to someone that didn't know how to be explicit? Because maybe they didn't even know what they were needing? You know, I love the specific nature of your ask. 

David : Yeah, that's kind of the question, too, is like, you know, so much of the third place is this tension. It's your perspective. It's my perspective. It's embracing the tension, and really wrestling with that, like, you answer a lot of what but is there more specific advice to give, for other people to help create those safe places like in order to have a living attention, there has to be a safety that's created to so what would you say to people who? How can we help others through grief? How can we create safe places for that person? 

Gabby : Marisa, we were just talking about grief and safety. So I'm gonna let you take that.

Marisa : I love it. I realized I probably should have mentioned this earlier. But I'm writing a book about grief right now. And Gabby has been sort of my book, Sherpa mentor, as I work my way through it. And one of the things that I have stumbled upon to your point, David, is that, like, proper grief, particularly if you're in a place where you need to just like, let yourself fall apart, it requires safety, which means unfortunately, there are a lot of people who have lost people through this pandemic, I think are going to have a harder time with grief and with healing, because they are marginalized in society. You know, I think about what safety means and what it looks like, for me as a black woman who, you know, when my mom died, was like just getting started trying to make it trying to figure out my life and my career and everything else. And I didn't feel safe. You know, I was working on Wall Street, generally, the youngest person in the room, usually the only woman, always the only black person. And it was really hard. And I think figuring out how we consistently provide safety within our society so that people have the space that they need to identify these complicated feelings to figure out what it is that they need, even if it's just somebody coming and timing them while they do the crossword puzzle is really important. And I think we do that by developing a greater degree of empathy for people who don't look like us, who maybe we don't immediately identify with, and we take it upon ourselves to create space for them. Because we know from what we've seen this past summer in this country that, you know, as a nation, it's going to take a while for us to get to a place where everyone really is safe and protected. So we need to take on that responsibility as individuals. 

Gabby : I think we'll have a wonderful grief mentor in our next president. And I think that we will have a great example of how men who aren't necessarily given the same societal permissions to grieve if anyone's ever gone to a support group. My guess is that it's been largely or exclusively women, that they can be open about their feelings and their loss. And I think that will be a really positive thing for all people and young men in particular to see.

David : Yeah. You know, when it looked like Biden was going to be president elect, like, for me, the feeling was one relief, but to Okay, the work is now just beginning. And like even this whole third place, podcast, the work of the summer for us kind of getting in our rhythm and building the platform, the conversations that we've been able to have and, and really define who we were one of the things that was, like, this work is just beginning, creating those safe places. And so, you know, January is going to be a little bit of a deep dive of how to really wrestle within who we are how, you know, kind of started the new year, but also just to do some foundational work, because we want to create the safe places around conversations of racism for black history, month of February, and around women inequality in March, for International Women's Day, like both of your work, it speaks to those things like the whole masculine conversation. You know, one of the conversations that I want to address as we talk about gender inequality is as men, we need to have the safe places too, that we are allowed to talk about feelings, and we are allowed to embrace femininity, and that's really healthy. And that actually helps the entire cause. It's kind of like, when any one of us feels pain, we all feel pain. So if men as men, and as for me, especially as a white man, I'm at the top of the totem pole, but I have to put myself at the bottom, and I have to do my best to feel empathy, that work around masculinity and redefining what it really is supposed to be patriarchy is bad for everyone, including men. And we're just going to have to figure out how to talk about our feelings. So we can have a healthy dialogue around that topic. 

Marisa : Absolutely. You’re preaching to the choir, but i think that you know that

David : I know that yeah. So you know, just the conversation around safety. Just thank you, both for your work is it's this hour has absolutely flown by, and to hear that you are doing the work of creating the safe place and the work of creating community that ultimately part of the healing process of grief is without question, connecting with other people. And I don't know, there's that sigh of relief of, you know, like I said, at the very beginning Marisa, like, I know, your pain, and it made me even feel that like, me too. I know what that feels like. And, you know, if there's anything, anyone that goes to the grief, like one thing is we can always be a guide for others, because they're all going to be going through it.

Gabby : Yes. Right. I think that, you know, everyone's going to experience grief in such a different way, even to people from the same family grieving the same person, it's going to experience it very differently. But I think one thing that unites us as we all need that safe place, and we all need support, however we define that, whatever that means for us, however, we asked for it. And I think that really connects us all. And it's a thread that runs through most people's grief experiences. Yeah.

David : Well, where can our listeners connect with you and your work? 

Marisa : So I am on Instagram as Marissa Renee Lee. You can find me and most of my writing that I do for Vogue and glamour and a few other outlets there

Gabby : modern loss is online at a modern loss, Mo d e r n l o. s s.com. And our social handle is at modernloss on Instagram and Twitter and on Facebook. And, you know, join us, join the conversation. And we're here for you and we look forward to hearing your story. And thank you for sharing it.

David : Well, thank you both so much for your work and for just share your stories with us. 

Mary : Yeah, again, Gabby and Marissa. Thank you so much. Be well everyone.