Ep 22 - Healing Grief Your Way with Gina Moffa
A psychotherapist for over 16 years, Gina Moffa, LCSW, has an active private practice on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, where she specializes in the many faces of grief and loss, trauma, as well as anxiety and depression that accompanies change. Gina also focuses on helping people to navigate uncertain, complicated life transitions, (even welcome changes come with their fair share of challenges!), and most recently, she is writing a book on healing grief- your way.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : We invite you into the third place.
David : Well Hello, everyone. Welcome to the third place podcast. This is our third episode in our grief series. And today we welcome Gina Moffa. a psychotherapist for over 16 years, Gina has an active private practice on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, where she specializes in the many phases of grief and loss trauma, as well as anxiety and depression that accompanies change. Gina also focuses on helping people to navigate uncertain complicated life transitions. And most recently, she is writing a book on healing grief. We go pretty deep in this conversation with Gina. You know, podcasts tend to be raw, real and personal. And this one will definitely reflect that. I personally open up quite a bit, including how I'm really struggling with political differences that I have with my extended family. While being real, my views do come up in this episode, and they've come up in previous episodes, but as you'll hear in this one, the point isn't to try to be right or to figure out how to change another's opinion. The third place, it's about asking questions. How do we create safe space for the conversations where we know we're gonna have differences. So I think you'll hear that depth and the richness of this conversation with Gina. Before we begin, I also want to just say thank you to our sponsor, covituary.org. We recorded this podcast and the others as part of the grief series two weeks ago. And in just a short period of time, we've had an additional 50,000 deaths from COVID. So you'll even hear it, we talk about how over a quarter million have died. But we've now passed 300,000. And it's very likely with everything going that way they are going to have another 50,000 before the end of the year. And I think Gabrielle on our last episode said it just so well that no one wants to be a part of a mass casualty. No one wants to be just a number. All these deaths are individual people, and they have families that are really hurting. And if you know someone, please send them to covituary.org. Here, their lives can be honored and memorialized. And we're just so grateful for the innovative idea of covituary, it's just so important. So please share that work. And again, just thank you covituary for the work that you're doing to create that platform for other people.
Mary : Quick reminder that we are still running our good grief giveaway. We have about a week and a half left to go before we choose one winner which will receive access to over $750 worth of grief support. Including a 45 min coaching session with Gina who we will listen to here in just a moment. An 8 wk online course with “Move Through Grief” which helps you combine intention with exercise and coping with common emotions experienced with the loss of a loved one. A copy of the book “Modern Loss” and a bag of artisan coffee or tea with a mug from LaTerza Coffee. We are really hoping to get this giveaway out there so please check us out on Instagram @thirdplacepod for all the details. This is a giveaway that should not go to waste because it is such a powerful combination of resources for someone that could use an extra support in this grief as we move through 2020.
David : So again, we're going to go deep so let's dive in.
Mary : Well everyone welcome Gina. Gina is a licensed psychotherapist that specializes in a few things. But one of those things is grief. And I think because grief is such a sticky topic. I would love to start with, you know, tell us how and why do you form a specialty in grief?
Gina : Sure, because it's so uplifting. You know, I began my career early in 2002, really being excited about trauma work. And so I specialized in trauma, I went to a specific certification program, and I went to Africa, and I was, you know, doing a project working specifically with young girls who were traumatized, and who had lost family, due to genocide, and all of that. And it was so interesting to me that through the years, my specialty and trauma always had one thing that was sort of the undercurrent through all of it, and it was loss, and grief. And it was never talked about internationally or all through the years, that trauma could be this entirely huge, you know, paradigm right now, and grief wasn't in it. And so, I found that through my time, you know, doing clinical work and doing trauma work, I wound up in an organization here in New York City working with Holocaust survivors specifically. And in that I was doing trauma groups and all of this. And one day, the president of the organization said, you know, would you like to do grief groups, too? And I was like, grief, what am I supposed to do it that way, you know, and yet, I started it. And what I started doing was really treating it in a sense, like trauma, because it was something that there was a before, and then there was an after. And it wasn't something that the brain can really contend with. Because you don't have the tools no matter how much you prepare. And no matter how many books you read, and how many people you've spoken to that have all experienced grief, you never know it's going to happen with you specifically, everyone has a different way of not just feeling grief and dealing with grief, but processing it in their brains, literally, because it is a trauma. And that was the one thing that always felt to me like it was missing in the therapy work with it. So here I was still a pretty fresh and green therapist in the early 2000s running grief groups, like a trauma therapist. And feeling like there was a lot of to do, this is what's next. And this is what we'll do next. And this is what the education is right. This is what your brain is doing. And this is why it hurts. And I did that thinking that I was so good. And 2015 I lose my mother to cancer. And this arrogant therapist in me thought all of these years I have prepared for this moment, I know what to do, I'm going to treat it like a trauma. And yes, I did. And yet I failed miserably. I failed miserably at it. And I realized this is the most pathetic thing that has ever happened. That a grief therapist can't do grief, and it was a moment that really brought me into almost a dark night of the soul.
Mary : So how do you treat something like trauma? Like what does that look like? And then how did that transform in the loss of your mother?
Gina : Well, one of the things that I think could be similar was that in treating trauma, one of the things I think is the most vital is the witnessing, and the being heard. When it comes to trauma, one of the hardest things for someone to do is tell their story. But it's the most important thing they do. And the same goes with grief. Right? It's the most important thing we can do is to be heard. And I think in both instances, not a lot of people always want to hear it. So that was number one, you know, and when I talked about education before that, it's really the understanding that we have this one nervous system that is supposed to take the job of all of these traumas that we have in life. And that could be little traumas, right? Everybody who's listening to this, and all of us have endured a trauma of some kind. And that is basically something that happens in your life that is outside the scope of your ability to cope with it. And that can be little or that can be something big. But I think that what we tend to forget is that our brain is basically trying to deal with all of them at the same time. So what happens is that old things will pop up. So if you're trying to heal something that happened yesterday, and something from 20 years ago comes up, you're going to be thinking, Oh, I guess I never healed that. Right. And so that came up a lot with even my own grief, was thinking, Oh, I thought that I grieved, you know, the loss of my friend 16 years ago. But I guess I didn't. But the truth is, is I did, but my brain didn't know that. Because all of the traumas are the same. And the one Nervous System sees it all the same way. Oh okay, that's similar. We're triggered by that. So this is what's coming up again and again and again. So it's really understanding that deeper
David : Woah, can you say that definition of trauma, again?
Gina : Sure, it's an experience or an event that is outside of our ability to cope with it. It's something that happens, where we actually do not have the resources to cope with it.
David : Where my mind goes with that. And even resting in that definition is and you mentioned micro traumas, and we all have them, there's major traumas and micro traumas. Like to me part of what 2020 is we're living in a moment of trauma, and of all shapes and sizes, people who have lost loved ones all the way to people, even people that are thriving right now are still missing human connection. Or, you know, no matter what, there's some small traumas going on with COVID stuff. But there's also what I'm, as you look ahead, there seems like there's going to be another series of traumas, once we get past to the season where we can have vaccine and start to re engage with normalcy again, I think we're also going to look back at 2020 with different levels of trauma and grief.
Gina : Absolutely. And it is going to be again, pretty individual, but there are things that are collective, you know, we we watched together, witnessing George Floyd murdered, witnessing the murder of Breanna Taylor, these are things that are collective griefs and collective traumas, the civil unrest, the continuation of the election, where we really don't know who's in charge, or how this will all go, you know, what's real and what isn't real? And why do those people believe what's not real? And there's so much here, that's really, it's pushing us to the edge of our sanity.
Mary : So I'm wondering, then, what I feel like I heard you say is that when you have trauma of any degree, it's felt or experienced in the exact same way, regardless of the degree. So our response to observing something horrific, that is of grief, or trauma, to the loss of a loved one, or someone that we knew, to the loss of a job, that all translates in the same way to our nervous system?
Gina : It does, if you can even just as you're saying that now, could you think of a time that something triggered you right? A trigger is something that is anticipatory, right? Something has made me feel as scared and up ended, as I have felt before. That's exactly what it is. And I'm sure you all can think of some time in your life that something happened and you felt, oh, wow. Like, I must really be scared. Or maybe you're surprised by someone else's response to something that maybe feels bigger than, quote, unquote, it ought to be. But our nervous systems are all really pre-wired, in a sense to respond the same way to these different stimuli.
Mary : And why would we respond in the same way? What's the purpose of that?
Gina : Well, it really is just you really have three choices. It's fight flight, or freeze. Mm hmm. And so outside of that, it's how do we measure the danger? And that is what your brain is actually doing. It's reacting to a foreseen danger or an unforeseen danger, and anticipatory danger. And that's why it's reacting that same way, right? Your brain isn't. If you're about to fall down a set of stairs, your brain isn't going to say, alright, so when we did this the last time, we we remember that if we just put our hand up to the right, and it you know, if we put our arm this way, we won't hit our head so hard. You know, it doesn't work that way. The same fear of absolute annihilation will come over your body and your brain as you fall down the stairs. If you've fallen down the stairs before, right, it's not like you falling down the stairs and you're like I've been here before. I'm just going to breathe through it.
Mary : I think you know, as we're all sitting with our own experience of grief over the last year, and our response is going to be one way that is an out of body experience or nervous system response that seems like it's like a lack of control. How do you find a sense of control when everything feels out of control?
Gina : Well, that's the $64,000 question. How do we find control when everything feels out of control? If we all had the answer to that we would be millionaires? No, but it's different for everybody.
David : Well, one of the things that you said earlier, too, is I remember 12 years ago, or so I read a book called Deep Survival. And it highlighted all these survival moments of people and different stories. And one of the ideas of the book was kind of what you said, you don't know how your own brain is going to react until you're in that moment of survival or like, Alright, in what you said, with trauma. And sure enough, like right after I read that book, I was in a life and death situation. And at the other end of it, I was like, oh, cool, that really led me I know how my brain works, I was able to stay calm and collected. But that's, no one knows.
Gina : It's so true. And I think that's what trauma is, right? It's unpredictable, I mean, sometimes trauma can be long term, things like abuse and neglect, of course. But a lot of the time, it is this unpredictable event, and you're left sort of trying to make sense of it. And so that's why I really equate it with grief, even grief that we can anticipate too.
Mary : So when you lost your mom, clearly that changed your scope so much. I mean, you were helping people, you were supporting them in their grief journey having had grief prior? Or was that your first, I guess, maybe closest experience with grief was with you at the loss of your mother.
Gina : I've had grief before that but I don't think that I ever allowed it to break me open the way the loss of my mother did.
Mary : So what did it expose for you?
Gina : Truth, truth. I think grief exposes our raw bones. It exposes the truth of our relationships, it exposes the truth of our coping mechanisms of how well we've developed, of how we can accept the suffering and the pain and not reject it. It shows the truth of how willing we are to share and sit in it. Grief is just one of those things that for whatever reason, is still such a stigma, even though we're starting to talk about it more, and I think now I would love it, if in 2020 to 2021, you know, a lot like when we normalized anxiety and anxiety disorder, we can start to normalize grief, and really have it as something that is at the table systemically. You know, we talk about bereavement leave, we talk about, you know, ways that workplaces can support people who have gone through loss, more community settings, and just people in general having more of a comfort level with talking about loss. And I think it is more of an American thing, or a Western thing. At best, you know that we struggle so much with this in general?
David : Yeah, I mean, one of the things that's interesting, like we've talked about in other grief episodes that Mary lost her dad earlier this year, and not to COVID, but it was during the beginning of COVID. And there's the grief of the death. But there was also this grief of not being able to celebrate his life, not being able to gather, and it feels like we're going to have to talk about it. Because here we have over a quarter million Americans that are grieving now that are going through the first Thanksgiving without someone they love now, but also aren't able to process now in the ways that we're used to processing to celebrate someone's life. And so this, this grief is gonna live on with us for a while. And we're kind of have to figure it out. Because there's going to be all these new moments of grief when we maybe can gather again, like in a good way to wrestle with the grief. But I also just think that it's just exposed so many of the systems like what I look at 2020 with COVID. It has exposed so many truths. So I liked how you created grief to truth to seeing truth.
Gina : I think we have to, I think at this point, you know, we're such a society of pick yourself up by your bootstraps. We're a society of doing, we're a society of solution finders. And we get so uncomfortable when there's actually nothing to do. And you know, what, what, what does one do, but we sit in it, and we don't understand the power that there is in connection and saying I see you I hear you. I'm with you.
David : Yeah, I've always said I at least grew up to fulfill the American dream, quote unquote, is to be completely independent. I don't need anyone for anything, period. And so I would also say that we're a society of individualism. And you can't do grief and individual, it don't work together.
Gina : It doesn't. I mean, Mary, can you speak to that a little with your experience?
Mary : Yeah, I mean, you know, they talk about this in grief, but like your first first, right, so I lost my dad at the end of March. I went through Father's Day, you know, shortly thereafter, and then it's like all the holidays, which Thanksgiving, historically for my family was, we have divorced parents. So it would be complicated, like, I mean, it was like, Okay, now we have to see this family and this family and our own thing. And then our in laws and other states on the east coast and the stress of the complication, I missed the stress of the complication. And I never thought that I would miss that. I'm sitting here being like, this is the first year that not only do I not have one of the three scenarios that I used to want to fulfill, I don't have any of them because of COVID. So the like, quiet of this time, is intense. And because it is exactly that I like space giving actually is harder to sit with, I'm starting to really have so much more space that I'm like, feeling like I need to connect and not be individually driven in my grief journey than I was for the last six months. And the word that has come up for me so much, in not just my relationship with my father prior to his passing, but the relationship after his passing is just, it's just so damn complicated. And there's no sense to be made. And I'm really craving and needing support in this space. And the opposite of being individualistic, that's for sure.
Gina : 100% It is funny how your brain needs something to do. Yeah, to give it a sense of control. I was struck by what you said before that about sort of like missing the stress. Because at least that gave you some semblance of control. Or ownership over it over what your brain was doing. And now your brain is left to its own devices.
Mary : Yeah. And I was always the person to like help to usually, you know, be the chess player to make sure that we are all coming together. And I'm the connector. And, you know, I've gotten to live that identity that I've had through in my dad's passing by being a co-trustee of what's unfolded after the fact, it's been the hardest, most stressful, most painful experiences of my life. But when I'm not actually doing that, I and now that it's getting less complicated by not having many things to coordinate, I actually like I'm very confused around my purpose on many occasions where it's like, so then what am I supposed to do and how does that connect or not connect to my worth. And that's all come through the loss of my father. It's like, it's just so unprecedented.
Gina : And there's the grief, right? That is the truth. It exposes the truth. And sometimes the truth is that your entire castle is brought down by that wave. And you get to look at each piece, building it back up to find what is going to bring you a new sense of purpose and meaning. And it's hard to do that when you're in the midst of looking at the pieces on your knees all alone
Mary : Is there anything like, how do you know when you're not in the midst?
Gina : I think right now is hard because this is such an abnormal time for everybody. You haven't had a normal quote unquote, normal experience of grief just yet simply because of the timing of it all. But I do think that it's pretty individual for some reason. And I think that one day when you wake up and there's things that you start to notice about yourself that feel different. I remember the first time I laughed after my mother died. It feels so monumental to me. It felt so inappropriate, but it felt so fucking good. And I felt really guilty around it. But I think at that point, I was like oh, I think I'm not in the midst of it right now I'm not in the storm. I think that I'm on the outskirts of it, perhaps, for today. But I think that the way that grief is and because it's so cyclical, and because it's so unpredictable, and it's so based on memories that we have, and things that are unfinished, our own sense of how we process, start, and endings. I think that that complicates it too. But I do think that when you start to notice one thing, you're doing differently, that feels good in the moment, that feels freeing, I think you might see a different way.
David : So you just mentioned that grief is the cyclical thing. You know, like I, I thought there were five stages, and you go through them in a linear pattern. And now there's the sixth stage of meaning, like,
Gina : I have felt, you know, angry, I have bargained. I just bargained the other day, you know, for no reason. It's been, you know, next week, it'll be five years since I've lost my mother, and I'm still bargaining. I think, again, this goes back to the American way of wanting something very, very neat. We can have a mess, as long as it's in this container. You know, but absolutely. And I think that if you were looking at something, and even collectively, you know, whatever your loss may be, you're going to feel angry, you're going to feel sad, you're going to deny it. Look, some of the people are still denying we even have a virus right now. You know, they're in that state, I'm going to call it a state of grief, because how can it not be? Some people are still bargaining, you know, I’ll social distance, but I won't wear that mask, you know, whatever it may be. And it goes over and over and over. But I think, because our lives are so you know, because we carry people within us and we carry people within our biology within our brains, you know, right, we have these memories, we have this ability to connect in ways that other mammals don't. And so we find meaning in those connections. And because of that, smells, and you know, coming across, you know, someone in the street who may resemble your father or my mother, it comes right on back. And any one of those emotions, whether it's anger or sadness, whether it's the denial again, I can't, could that be them, you know, whatever it may be. And even David Kessler, who worked along with Elisabeth Kubler Ross, came up with a new stage of grief called meaning. And now it's touch and go, you know, for people, but I do think that it is eventually something that I think it can be so rewarding to find some kind of meaning in a loss. I don't think we're there collectively. I don't think we should be there collectively, unless individually, people can. But I think that that's also very personal.
David : Yeah, I definitely never connected the denial of COVID exists with a grief
Mary : Me neither.
David : The other thing that you just said, the meaning component, and I've been probably in this a lot, like I'm looking at COVID, I'm like, okay, where's the meaning here? Where's the meaning here, here's the truth that it's exposed. Here's all the systemic issues of racism, that maybe are more exposed because of COVID that we have unequal, you know, minorities are more likely to die because of COVID. And there's an inequality. And, again, I didn't put this into a grief category, but I am grieving 2020, but also pushing into trying to find the meaning of it all personally
Gina : I think that, as a society, you know, you've heard of zoom fatigue, and pandemic fatigue all of this right. And I think the meaning for me personally has been that conversations and connections have been more authentic, they've been more honest, people are almost forced to be more vulnerable, and to show themselves in ways that they couldn't before. I think that we realize that whether it's conscious or not, we don't have all the time in the world with one another. And for whatever reason, it's pushing people to be in a place where the connection is the most important and people are longing for real life connection, again, in a way that we haven't in a while, because people have wanted to do things electronically for so long, right? Like, you know, don't make a meeting if it can be an email. You know, let's be efficient. Let's just do everything Quick, quick, quick. And I think what we're noticing is that now that we've spent this year doing that, it doesn't serve us as humans, and the media, bless their hearts, instant trauma all the time with the death toll and the Illness toll constantly on the screen. It's never off the screen unless there's a commercial. So you're always seeing that as a country, we've lost well over 250,000 people. And so yeah, when you see those people who were like, yeah, that's not real, or I, you know what? It's thinning the herd and all of these things, what I think of is I feel a first my initial reaction is, Are you fucking kidding me? But after that, it's like, wow, you must be really afraid. You must be really scared. unconsciously, maybe. But you must be really scared that this could be you. Because you don't even want to confront it. You don't even want to go there.
Mary : I still am, like you, David, just sitting with the shock of comparing the conversations or the emotions that people are having to a stage of grief. And that, I think that that might be one of my favorite takeaways from this whole series that we're doing on grief and realizing that what that knowing gives me is like so much compassion, because then I can relate it to, you know, everyone has their thing. And part of the work that we're trying to do in the third place is how can you access empathy, when what you just told me helps me to access empathy by relating it to something that I can truly understand that I never would have thought as grief, but maybe just as being human? And it's, like, easier for me to feel compassionate. When I realize like, man, they're experiencing something just as intense as me. And it's the death of something.
Gina : It certainly is. And we don't, we're not always going to know what that means for someone else. That's the hardest part, though.
Mary : So how do you in your work? As a psychotherapist, how do you guide someone through the process of grief?
Gina : I think what I said earlier, is that healing means being heard. And having a space a lot like this, to get it all out and be there with it and be present. I always say be here now just show up and tell me the truth. And that's it. And that's my only requirement for therapy. But I think in these particular times, where there's so much layered within that grief, which is trauma, which is anxiety, which is anticipatory grief, right? Am I going to lose someone? Am I going to lose my parent or my relative who is, you know, in their 70s 80s 90s, who has underlying conditions, who is maybe a lot like my father, who is not always listening to the rules, like not eating indoors, and that kind of thing. And you know, that makes people lose sleep at night. So I think one of the things that makes this particular time different with walking through grief is that you're not just walking through grief, you're walking through anxiety, you're walking through trauma, and you're walking through it with everybody. It's not just oh, Mary, I'm sorry, you know, let's talk about your individual loss. But because your loss is fraught with anxiety and trauma, and your own underlying, perhaps, history with, you know, either depression or sadness, or whatever it may be, which is all so elevated right now, these times are unprecedented in a way, where I say, we can't just have self care, we have to have survival care.
David : Mary asks, How do you walk someone through the stages of grief or meet them where they're at? I want to know, just even based on what you said, and your dad and my family members who would disagree with that this is real and now realizing it's a version of grief and denial. How do you walk someone through who doesn't even realize that they're in grief? Can you, how do you meet that person where they're at?
Gina : I think what it is, is almost like, not necessarily framing it as grief. You know, if I use my father, for example, he's missing my mother. And his extreme aloneness, in this particular time has resurfaced all of that grief. He was with her 45 years and, you know, high school sweethearts and all of that. And so, he's kind of in a place where he's like, good. let me dive in. I'll be with my wife. And so when you're walking someone through that kind of grief, and that's pretty similar. You know, I'm hearing that a lot, especially with people who've lost somebody to COVID or lost somebody very suddenly, they almost welcome it. There's almost a sense of invincibility. And so like I said earlier, you're walking with somebody through grief, but it's really trauma, because this person doesn't know how to live without this other person.
Mary : So do you think though, too, that it's easier to frame it as trauma than grief? Like there's less of a negative connotation with trauma than grief? Because trauma is like, something happened to me, I'm participating in it. And grief is like, sometimes I feel like what even though I think this is not true, that I have a choice to sit in it or not. And trauma feels choiceless.
Gina : Do you have a choice to sit in it or not?
Mary : I don't, I don't believe that’s true. But I think that I could tell myself that.
Gina : Well, the trauma survivor can tell themselves that too. Anybody who's going through something can tell themselves, they have a choice, and they can sit in it, or they don't have a choice, because their brain is doing this. Could be people who go through panic attacks. Right? Everything is relative. I think that more than ever, grief needs to be de-stigmatized in that. It isn't something you necessarily just sit in. Yes, there is nothing to do. But communing and talking about the person, knowing that the person may have died, but the relationship hasn't. And just like a part of your life may have stopped with a trauma, but your life itself hasn't stopped. And it's a way of finding along with other people a sense of what we spoke about earlier, new meaning, new rituals, a new way of looking at life, a way of being more compassionate, more deeply and fiercely loving. And we're not meant to be in this world, the same way, indefinitely. So what are we going to do with this one wild and crazy life as Mary Oliver would say, and more and more we're seeing, being with other people. Healing with other people. You know, when I was in Africa, I was part of the truth and reconciliation. And I was witnessing people come up and say that they were sorry for things that they had done for people they had killed. And that witnessing, and that declaration with people watching and hearing somebody admit that they've killed your family to you, but to everyone else, was where the healing really began. And I'm not sure why I thought that story was important right now. But basically, just to say, we don't do enough of that truth telling together. And to be honest, even here in New York City, the amount of grief groups that we do not have is astounding. New York City!
David : Yeah. When you said that, I was thinking, honesty and truth. And it just keeps going back to that. But then both of those are also just so tied to safety. If we don't have safety, then we can't get to honesty and truth. Even the fake news versus non fake news, it's still trust and safety issue.
Gina : It certainly is. And when I talk about COVID, I think that's the one loss that we've that we've had, right? We want to talk about the things with grief that we can see that we've lost. And then there's so many things that we can't see that we've lost and safety is one of them.
Mary : Interesting, I was even thinking about how you said maybe you've lost things in the loss of a person, but the relationship wasn't lost. I often feel like my relationship with my dad is actually stronger since I lost him. I talked about him probably 100 times more than I did prior, I think about him 100 times more, I share stories about 100 times more, it's consuming. And that, to me is like an element of relationship. And I feel like my relationship has never been stronger and tangibly, he's no longer here, physically is no longer here.
Gina : Right. And I bet that some of that has to do with the relationship that you had with him, maybe not always being able to share so openly and honestly. Yeah. And now you feel like you can be yourself.
Mary : Right, because I choose to believe that there's this sense of peace and clarity that he's achieved in that. And that knowing gives me peace and clarity. And so through that there does feel like, you're right, he feels more receptive.
Gina : Because when you said it's complicated earlier, I was like, Oh, that's where the juice is, that's where that those are where the meat and potatoes are in the relationship, especially in grief because you have both a responsibility and a gift of working through the love in a new way, in an open way that you didn't have when he was alive. And this goes for both of you. There's a fierce compassion and a fierce openness that we have when there aren't these barriers of ego in the way. And I think that's where I find the gift. You know that you get to work that through, but in a more forgiving, beautiful light.
Mary : It is less mucky.
Gina : It is because humans are messy and clumsy. We don't really know what we're doing. What do we know?
Mary : And I'm only bringing my muck not his muck. You know, it's only it's just far less complicated.
Gina : Mm hmm. Sure. And he was bringing his muck and his parents muck. And their parents muck. You were bringing the muck you got from him. All of this beautifully inherited, sticky muck that we all get to work through together. And you know, what if we weren't all so afraid to just be vulnerable and open with one another? What if?
David : I can't remember if I captured this when we were recording or not. But yeah, at the beginning, Mary, you said something like, no one's normal. One of the phrases that I've always said out loud is Yeah, no one's normal. And if you find someone who is, they're the ones who are weird.
Gina : Oh my god, it's so true too. It's true. I mean, we're so strung together with theories and societal norms. Like, where did they all come from? We're just these clumsy meat suits, trying to get it right. You know, I always picture us as these people in these sumo wrestling suits just kind of trying to hug but instead, we just keep bumping into each other and falling down. Because it's that way, no matter what the relationship in so many ways, you know, and so it's, it's how do we get it right with each other before, we have to get it right on our own with that person.
David : Yeah, and the whole normalcy like, we assume everybody else out there is normal. So therefore, we have to try to be normal, but we're afraid that we're not and we know that we can't ever be there. So then that's where all the fear comes from.
Gina : It's so true. So David, how are you gonna fix the world and do that?
David : Well, help us please pass the third place on, thank you for sharing with us.
Mary : Well what I really wanted to thank you, though, for Gina, is that you brought something in that is very healing, which is the humor, right? And I've noticed that the more I can take my grief to a state of humor, like, on many occasions, I actually shed tears when I'm experiencing that. So it can be, it still helps me move through it. And it's not like I'm ignoring it, or I'm doing something that is not acknowledging it. But having visuals like the meat suits, or the sumo like that reminds me that humor is just one of the most connecting and healing things. I think that plays a role in grief.
Gina : 100% I use it in all of my sessions. Thank God, I've people who laugh with me, as appropriate, obviously, but we really do because I think you know, like I said earlier, when I laughed the first time after my mother died, it was this moment that felt so me. And I really struggled with thinking I should have or is this is this right? Am I not grieving my mother? Because I just laughed. Does that mean I love her less? Because I laughed. And that was part of my getting it wrong.
Mary : How did you know you were getting it wrong? Was someone there to remind you of that? Or tell you of that? Or did you just come to that?
Gina : I didn't know it for almost a year and a half. Honestly, it wasn't until I started to talk or to do it more in my practice. And people would say, thank you so much. I didn't think that was so funny, but it really is. And it's risky. But then I was like oh geez, all of that weight I put on myself to laugh or not laugh was like what my mother and my mother laughed all the time. Why would I think not laughing is showing her love? It's so backwards and twisted. You know our view of grief and so in that way it was so freeing and now I laugh all the time and I laugh at things that, I just have a good time with myself apparently. I feel like this whole interview I've so enjoyed you, but I haven't made any sense. So I hope that you've got something from this
David : I don't know, I feel like you have. What I was just now sitting in and it felt like a band-aid really being ripped off, was my parents are alive, I feel like I've lost the relationship though. We are so different in different spaces politically. I'm not sure I can ever heal it back. And we're so different in our perspectives of the world right now. And yesterday was a good conversation, and I made progress I didn't think I'd make. But what I felt just now through this conversation is I'm going to have to grieve twice, there's a grief of relationship and depth of relationship, and I don't think I'm going to get it back. So there's death in that. And then there'll be a physical death someday.
Gina : Do you think that 100% you can't get it back?
David : No. But it's gonna take a lot of work which I'm willing to do, I'm just not sure they are. My conversation yesterday was with my mom, and we talked about religion and politics and COVID. I started with love is it that's all we're gonna talk about, love is the most important thing. And the reason why we started there, because I already knew heading in the conversation, their set of facts and my set of facts, we're not going to be, so the only fact that we could agree on before the conversation started is Love is the most important thing.
Gina : It's not a bad place to start, David, I would say, and this isn't me being clinical or anything, but I would say that there's always hope in some way. And let's just keep chipping away at the things that you have in common. Because your mom, in the end, isn't gonna want to lose you. Yeah, you don't want to lose your kid, especially to these things. It's not like you, I mean, you've been through a lot in your life. And I think that's what fierce loving is, right? And that's, you know, that you can be in the arena, and in that boxing ring with these people. And you'll box it out to the desk, but you're going to be in it committed.
Mary : It's exactly what we're trying to do. I mean, you're touching on the entire intention behind the third place, which is how can you box it out with someone, and still be rooted in empathy, and walk away having a generous perspective, like, if we're just trying to like, provide a space that is safe, so that we can go to the conversations that are surfacing, that needed to be surfaced, and make it so that we can all grow, even if it's just growing in your capacity to learn more, to listen more, to actually be with people more, because I think that like what you were saying with grief, it's like, the biggest gift or tool I've heard you say is just like being able to tell your story and share your story and for people to hear it. And you have to have the capacity or the feeling of safety in order to be able to do that. And that's clearly one of the biggest things that we're lacking right now, just in the way that we are operating. How would you help those hold space for that or be a safe place? Or be fully present and listen?
Gina : Well, you just said it. But you know, I think it's not not doing what we would feel best having done. But really inquiring and inquiring. And sometimes the grieving person doesn't know what they need. And so it's like, poking around in the dark. But it's hopefully knowing the person well enough to know they need to be nourished. And so doing all the things you can without them asking just to bring nourishment to them, whether that's through food, self care, any kind of, you know, luxury of some kind, like a robe and slippers, like whatever it may be that can feel comforting. And you just poke around in the dark and be consistent. And I think that people just want it to be over when they want it to be over. And that's not how grief works. Because that's not how love works.
Mary : It's not conditional.
Gina : Right. So I think we have to be patient with the people that were sitting in grief and just know that, you know, they may talk about that person every day, every hour on the hour. And that doesn't mean that they're not okay. And we have to sit there and be with it. Because in the end, right if you're heard enough, your healing begins in a different way. But healing is always stunted when we're not heard. Case in point with David, you're not heard.
David : What I was thinking was my dad, his upper 60s, white male. And it's one of the least in their fault and generalization of the demographic that they don't know how to talk to people. So they don't even know how to talk in a way that can be heard. So, of course, he doesn't feel heard. But he doesn't even have the tools to talk. So what I was just thinking, when you were saying all that is, how do I? Is it possible to teach him tools to even communicate, so that he can be heard?
Gina : I think so. I think it's called mirroring. I think you be the tool that you want to teach him. And, you know, whether it's asking him really compassionate questions, whether it's sharing your own feelings, without judgment, without, you know, very calmly, just filled with love. So that, you know, you can't even meet fire with fire, right. But when there's water, your fire’s not going to go anywhere. So basically, I'm saying be the water. And be it consistently. And see if there's any change that comes from you being this very, you know, very loving, patient, compassionate person who's sharing the same thoughts, the same views, the same questions in different ways. And you have to look at yourself and say, I have to be open to this human who has come from a place of lack, scarcity and fear, of entitlement of arrogance, of never having to question his place in the world. And I have to now have compassion for that learning curve, because that is steep and painful, and they are going to go down fighting. And you're never going to change generation after generation after generation with one or two conversations of proving a point. It doesn't work that way. So I think that consistency is going to be in your mirroring and being a mirror for him, and hold it up and show him how to see himself in a new way.
David : Well, before we pressed record on this, we were joking about how I don't really cuss all that often, at least outside of my head. But I need to say, Oh, bleep, that was bleep good.
Gina : Oh my heart is open, bursting thing for you. I wish I could hug you. But we're in COVID. And you're on the other side of this computer.
David : Well someday soon. So just logistically, we have to ask the question. So where can people find you and more of your work?
Gina : Yeah, I would love it if people felt like they wanted to reach out. They can find me at Ginamoffa.com. I am also on Instagram @ginamoffalcsw and all of my contact information you can find on either of those sites.
Mary : Thank you so much. You've been an absolute treat.
David : And just brilliance just to sit and really wrestle and the rawness I'm sure people are gonna have food for thought.
Gina : Well, I can't thank you enough for this interview and for being here with me and for being here for so many people who are struggling right now. Your work is important now and will continue to be even more important so I can't wait to be out there and share it.
Mary : Thanks, Gina.
Gina : Thank you guys.
Mary : Be well everyone.
