Ep 20 - Good Grief
As 2020 comes to a close, we take a moment to pause and grieve. So many of us have lost loved ones, lost jobs, lost relationships, and lost basic human connections of hugs and simply hanging out with friends. How can we embrace our grief? Can it be a gift? What are the stages of grief and what does walking through the stages look like in this difficult year?
We begin this conversation as one of four parts as we have four amazing grief experts joining us in the next three episodes.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Mary : Well, it's not every month that we do a four part series on a topic, let alone a topic so heavy as grief. But with everything that's unfolded in 2020, we felt it was important to create space this month to really do a deep dive on a topic that is not only personally relevant, but shared amongst all of us. The grief of the loss of people, the loss of people to COVID-19. The loss of the way that we used to operate, the loss of the ability to plan or the loss of the ability to send your kids to school easily, whatever it may be, the year of 2020 has been an overwhelming experience. And a lot of grief has accompanied it. So with that being said, we are honored to have a partner in this series, and this partner is a new platform online, called covituary.org. It's a free online memorial site that allows friends and families to be together virtually to celebrate the lives of those lost to COVID-19. It was founded by a friend Megan and her daughter, who's just 16, Samantha. They are out of Denver, Colorado. And this inspiration came because there has been so much loss to the pandemic, and many have not been able to have a proper memorial. Thank you, covituary.org for sponsoring this mini part series on grief, and for the work that you're doing to create an opportunity for those to have a free memorial for those lost to COVID-19.
[intro-music]
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : We invite you into the third place.
David : Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to the third place podcast. To wrap up 2020, we have done a four part series on not just grief. But what we were calling Good Grief. Each episode brings in four of the most inspiring individuals to speak to grief at all angles. Our intention in doing such a deep dive was to acknowledge all that has unfolded in 2020. And the losses that ensued both the physical and otherwise.
Mary : In this first episode, we really embraced what we call the gray space. We did this by processing both of our stories of grief. And as many of you know, 2020 has been a year of a lot of unexpected loss for myself. So you know, as a disclaimer, I really wanted to say that as we dive into this four part series, you'll hear a lot of vulnerability on my end, as I process my grief over the last year.
David : Yeah, and vulnerability is where I think grief begins, you know, just being honest with everything that we're all going through. And as we do that we hear the stories of other people. And we hear the things that we have in common with others that are going through grief. And many have experienced the grief of death this year. And that is one grief that we all experienced throughout our whole lives. So to create that safe space in the gray space to actually talk about it is something that is just very, very healing.
Mary : As a side note, we're doing something that we haven't done yet, and we're really excited about it. We will be starting a giveaway come the 16th. So keep your eyes peeled for our Instagram page at thirdplacepod, where we will share all of the details of how you can enter to win. It's a huge giveaway. Every single person that's a part of this four part series has contributed something that will help a lucky winner process their own grief. And it includes a package of different things that really will support you in an intentional way.
David : Yeah, this package, this gift is just going to be remarkable for someone who's going through grief that could really use some support is going to be something that's pretty special and we're excited to share it and we can't thank enough the people that have donated to help other people.
Mary : With that being said, let's take a listen.
David : Well, this is a space that we try to have the hard conversations that no one likes to get to. And, you know, it's funny, some of our episodes, I remember saying something like, well, this is gonna be a fun conversation, you know, and clearly, it's not going to be, you know, but that's the third place, we're going to go into these hard conversations that are uncomfortable, and they're hard, but they can be very much life giving and grieving 2020 is certainly that grief is that and if they ever what there was a year of grief, 2020 was it?
Mary : Right. I mean, like, if you had to talk about any topic that is one of the most uncomfortable, I feel like it's about death and the byproduct of death, or whatever it may be, death of a person, death of a concept, or an anticipation or perception or an expectation. And grief is a byproduct of that. And so this conversation was inspired by the fact that we didn't want to talk about like, looking forward to 2021, it didn't feel like that was the right thing to do. It felt like, actually, in order to continue on the work that we do, we need to look back at everything and consider it and really give it space. And then from there keep moving through because we all know, January 1 doesn't mean the turning of a new page or the start of a new book, if anything, it's a continuation. And that's something that we're trying to encourage in this conversation.
David : Yeah, I mean, I know I've mentioned it before, in a couple episodes that I just know, so many people where, 2019 was a really hard year. And so everyone was going into 2020 like this is the year of vision and you know, just the whole play on the 2020 thing. Right. And there was so much excitement around entering this year, and just a couple months into it. Really just all the wheels fell off. And I mean, I think that we could make even a worse mistake if we look at 2021. But to me, there's also a bit of irony, and I think that this is related to the grief topic that I think we did get some clarity in 2020 through grief. Right. So 2020 and Coronavirus, and all the things exposed how divided we are as a country and exposed new levels of systemic racism. And it's not that they weren't there before. But it brought it to light. So again, kind of brought it into vision. And so 2020 did do that.
Mary : Yeah, it opened the curtain. Right. Yeah. And it is funny because anyone listening if you're a reality show watcher, sitcom watcher, one of the like, most popular jokes right now is showing people talking about how 2019 wasn't their year, and 2020 will be, everyone loves to drop that right. And I remember feeling that like this, like 2019 was so hard for me actually, it was the first time that I lost a job in an unanticipated way, you know, working with only startups and emerging companies. It's been a volatile space to begin with. But the loss that I experienced last year was way more dramatic than I had experienced previously. And then to go into 2020, and only a few months into it, I lost another job as a result of COVID-19. And then a week later, I lost my father. And then everything else that sort of ensued. Following that. It just is, you know, it's mostly humbling to make such grandiose statements like, this is the hardest year of my life, knowing that that could really not be the truth. And there could be more to come. So I think that it was humbling. But it also was really eye opening for me and has, in turn just like what we spoke about, recently about gratitude has been through grief. It's made that valley so much deeper than it was before that those peaks have been really life giving in such a weird way.
David : Right? Yeah, you just said in our gratitude episode, this has been the hardest year of your life, and weirdly, the best year of your life. Yeah. And so those peaks and valleys are definitely related to one another.
Mary : And it's almost like in order to get to the place of gratefulness, we really like we thought about it and it's like okay, in order to experience that gratitude, we need to take a couple steps back. And talk about grief and what better time than now as the year starts to come to a close then to talk about damn, grief was plentiful this year. And there's been a lot of pain. And does that pain serve a purpose? What's the point of it? Does it make sense? Is there a sense to be made?
David : Yeah, and it's not that the New Year can't be a new marker, like, it can't be something that we can make new habits. And I think that there is something certainly healthy about that. But maybe the way to really maximize that is to sit with the grief part, right? The grief is something that can bring clarity to sit with pain, it can bring or add to that purpose. And we said it several times lately that the work of the third place is now just beginning, just even even in the midst of grief. And with like, a new presidency, there's these moments of change that are getting ready to happen. And it's not that anyone has arrived. It is in fact, like with change, the work now just begins. So I think the grief of 2020 to sit with it is really important. So that we can grow from it, and we can gain perspective of it, that we can feel the pain of it, and then use all of those to, to take it to the next level to get back to the place of the hard work that's needed to have the higher dialogues. So for example, if we are still struggling with relating to one another, let's grieve that, and forget the fact that you might be grieving relationships that are strained because of different perspectives right now, just about everything being heightened, but also the relationships that are strained because, everything's great, but you still can't see anybody right now. You know, that sucks. It just sucks. But I also, you know, like, I don't know, sitting in that makes me remember that when I do get to see some of these relationships. I will cherish them more, I'll remember those spaces more and I have something more to look forward to. And there's goodness in that too.
Mary : Yeah, I think one of the biggest lessons I learned so I've mentioned this a few times. But to get to my own personal relationship with grief over the last year. I lost my dad, it was extremely unexpected. It had nothing to do with COVID. I think that there was some part of COVID that maybe prevented him from seeking the help that he maybe otherwise would have sought. And he was having heart failure. So he was having active heart failure, but sort of it was misdiagnosed as a hernia but self diagnosed. And I think that he may be even though he definitely was a stubborn old man, he would have maybe gone in to seek help if it wasn't literally the start of the spike. I mean, this was the, you know, the end of March. So from that what came to me in the loss was exactly what you said it's like it exposed. So much perspective, so much unanticipated perspective, where suddenly I was asking myself questions that I don't think I've really ever asked myself. Who do I value? What are my values? How do I want to spend my time because the concept of time I think when you lose someone that dies becomes actually tangible when it can be so much just like taken advantage of prior? And like in those questions, some radical things have come up for me and that perspective is what's been life giving through grief. You know, I think that another thing that happens through COVID when you only have so many hugs that you want to give you know you create a pod like who am I going to spend time with? Where am I going to mitigate my risk or not? Where am I going to take on risk because it's worth the risk? And that's another perspective giving thing through the grief of being like you know what, I can no longer be a friend to 100 people what's socially responsible or what makes me feel safe or what lessens my anxiety was I can be friends to maybe five families because I understand the impact of or their risk tolerance or what their network is. And so I'll grieve the fact that I can no longer be this sacred friend to 100 but instead who is that group and what perspective, who is the one that mutually gives you you know, life back and the one they eat, you give it to as well. So that's been fascinating to me that through these like tough decisions, you actually, it can feel cutthroat but it can also feel like really, like you're simplifying, like you're like Marie Kondo-ing your relationships, and the way you spend your time and you're like, you know, what I can only give so much. So here's what I have to give. And here's where I want to receive.
David : Yeah, and I mean, you mentioned, you know, to job losses, which force you to do the same thing, like, well, what kind of work do I value and right after the second loss is when we started this podcast, and we didn't know where it was going to go, we just, you know, we started it for more business related things with coffee and tea shops and COVID, and how they all related, but it really has become its own voice. And I mean, I know for me, a lot of the work that I am looking forward to as we look ahead into the future is coming from this podcast. And I know the same for you like we just talking about all the things that we're dreaming up for next year, and where this thing could go. And the pain of losing two jobs certainly was real.
Mary : I forgot about that. It just shows you that the magnitude of one grief can overpower another one, even though it's all sort of in the same bucket. But I even forgot about the fact that that was a five month period. For me.
David : Yeah. You know, with work and this is one thing, you know, grief can also be the thing that inspires creativity. So here's all these pain points. Right? So the pain of losing the job, which forced you to do the work of what are the values and thankfully, you had some financial space to do that, even though there was some pressure to do that. But it forced you to ask some difficult questions, which led to creativity. And I mean, that conversation is ongoing as we speak. Just what are we going to do with this work? And where's it going to go? And how are you using it? There's something about sitting in grief, and definitely taking the time to pause and be reflective. And I think that that's one of the things I even as we enter the winter. Winter's like nature's version of grief for me, where it literally allows the space to just pause we're forced inside, we're forced to just be a little bit more in the wintertime. Even to me the seasonality, the trees aren't don't have any color to them. And if it snows, it's very much almost black and white. So there's that clarity that grief can give. But, but those moments are, they can also inspire that creativity.
Mary : I love that you brought that up. So anyone that knows me knows that I have a passion for what's called Five element theory, I've mentioned it before. It's basically that the way that we operate as humans we can operate in the harmony that nature does. And this usually has a lot to do with the alignment of seasons. And with winter, which is a water element. You know, water is plentiful, it falls from the sky in the form of snow on many occasions or rain in those places that maybe don't have snow. And with the falling of leaves. So the grief that comes from fall, which is a part of it. The clarity that comes from winter is that on many occasions, you actually probably couldn't even see through the abundance of trees prior. And now with the loss of trees and the bareness that comes from it exposes so much so this even talks about okay, this exposes things that you didn't see, in your perspective, your perspective has changed completely. Maybe there was a forest of Aspen's that before was lush and then with winter and with snow, there's quiet that comes in that quiet serves us to be able to have the capacity to listen and observe and then even see maybe you wouldn't even see that the multiple hills that layered behind. And I love that because through that, is the chance to be creative, to be a restorative. Being restorative i think is so important to being able to have the capacity to be creative. And so it can surface a lot. It can be super uncomfortable when there's space, I struggle when I'm not busy. And that's not to say that I haven't worked in retail and the holidays and winter and all that also brings up so much business. I think people are always like, oh, the holidays are crazy. It brings up chaos. I think that that's our way of actually like not being in rhythm with the seasons for the next six weeks. Right. We're literally embarking on some of what feels like the craziest time. And the the actual darker nights and shorter days and snow falling is calling us to be like, actually, this is a time to slow down and I think maybe social distancing and the rise of COVID is gonna force us into more slowing down then we're familiar with for the first holiday season and many, many decades.
David : Yeah, and I'll grieve that right now.
Mary : Are you? What are you? What are you grieving? Are you grieving not seeing people?
David : Yeah, it's definitely gonna be difficult. But even that being said, you know, thankfully, we live in a world where we have tools like zoom. And even though we can't see people in person and give hugs, we can still see people, whereas 100 years ago, we couldn’t
Mary : well, and it's like, great. This is time to be introspective. It's like haven't we been introspective for 10 months?
David : Yeah, all the introverts that I know are like, okay, even I miss people right now. You know, things are bad when no, this past weekend was very fall like it was kind of a cloudy, rainy day. Outside my house, there's lots of trees, and all the leaves are gone. And there was actually like a fog. So it had a feel of a white winter snowy day. But they were these two bright red cardinal birds just in the trees that I wouldn't have seen, you know, in the summertime. So there is definitely this clear beauty about that whole moment. And this nice pause for that moment.
Mary : Well, I was walking my three year old to school this morning, and we were talking about what it means to be camouflage. He saw a bunny and it was in the grass and it was easier to see it because the grass actually was a different color than the bunny. And it makes me realize that through that, just like what you said, you see things that you maybe wouldn't have otherwise. And that's what I love about this time. Even though on many occasions, I'm very much like a fairweather skier, like I have a hard time when it's too cold and all the other things that come with it, but it creates a canvas for you to see the thing that is so much more contrasting than before it could have been camouflage, right? So in the summer, you may not have seen things because things were so lush and the bird sort of was camouflage with the leaves or inside. And there's an ability to sort of not let that thing surface. So I think that that's a lot of talking about the pain that has come from it is that it surfaces things that are not comfortable. But also through that, so much creativity can be inspired. And I've learned that pain, just like positive feelings like love or other emotions, they need expression. And this is a time to be able to find what is that creative expression for you, whether it be something to do with music or art or just using your hands. You know, there's a lot of cooking in this time. And I find that to be one of the like, most natural ways of creative expression, because it's also a need, you know, you have to eat.
David : Right. Well, I know for me, like grief has been relatively minor, although there's definitely lots of it. And I know that there's a lot of people that have real hard things to grieve and Mary, you certainly have had a lot. So, you know, what does it look like? Or the question I have that's not answerable. But to you the listener, what does it look like to pause? Because grief can be good, we naturally try to avoid it. But it's really unavoidable. So what does it look like to create this space? And then Mary, I think you can speak to this more just because there has been that hardness in this year for you. And a lot of people can relate to that. One thing that I've seen is that you grieve and are at peace at the same time. And sometimes one overtakes the other. But there's this like balance between the two.
Mary : Yeah, I think I felt guilty when we first started talking about how I felt gratitude or peace, like that I couldn't be both at the same time. And what I've really realized, especially in some of the work, you know, you've probably heard a lot of the work around the stages of grief is that like grief it is not linear. It's not like we've arrived someplace. It's not like you're going to arrive by doing the work you’re suddenly gonna achieve a game like standard where you're like, Oh, I won.
David : Wait a minute, I actually, that's the first time I'm kind of hearing that. So grief is not linear like the five stages. You don't get through it?
Mary : No
David : Okay, so explain deeper, because that's fascinating
Mary : That it's not linear?
David : Yeah. I think Iso many people have heard like the five stages of grief.
Mary : Yeah, like you're supposed to, like, you know, first you feel this, then you feel that then you feel that, it's not linear. So there's two authors, David Kessler and Elisabeth Kubler Ross. Their work on grief was not intended to be this succession of events that you are moving through. And then once you're through it, you've accomplished, you're no longer grieving. That was not the intention behind that. That's been a lot of the misconception from what I've learned in my own journey. And I mean, it's only been six months, since I lost my dad, I guess, maybe seven now. And I remember, what I loved about the stages of grief is it helped me identify, okay, I'm feeling anger, or I'm feeling like it's not real. Like it's it doesn't exist, or whatever it may be, I could recognize what state I was in. But it was less of a stage; it was more of a state. And they are very fluid. And they don't go away. On many occasions, I've thought that it was just going to go away, and I also feel like there's pressure in relationship for it to go away. Because so often it has really brought up tension in my relationships as well, or my friendships outside of it, because it does consume a lot of me. But that's because I'm someone that, you know, I like to go through it, I like to go through the fire, I'm not going to avoid it for better or for worse, like, it may be intense to be my friend, it may be intense to go through it with me. But I tend to want to do anything to not deny my fact of it. Because I've had so many occasions where when I realized, you know what, today, I'm really tired. If I let myself be tired and not worry about why I'm tired, then I get through the fatigue quicker. So it's not that I'm trying to expedite the process. It's just that I actually feel more comfortable in strong emotions on many occasions, and grief is the strongest emotion I've ever felt. So to go back to, you know, your question, like it's not linear, no, no way, and it doesn't actually go away, it never will go away, I will learn to work with it or recognize it. But I am also trying to continue to allow myself to lament when I need to lament. And I'm trying to understand the spaces that I can go there that are safe, because it is a strong emotion. And I think on many occasions, it's like what we're talking about, it's an uncomfortable one. And so occupying a lot of conversations that are uncomfortable, people don't always want to do that, even if I do or if I need to. And I think just one more thing, David, I was thinking, I had to push pause on grief, because of COVID like we couldn't have a funeral. We had something ridiculous. It was you know, five people, it was nothing like you would envision, but I didn't know anything else. Because that was my first experience with it. And then I went into business mode being you know, there's the business of death that a lot of people like don't talk about, which is the aftermath of all the work that comes with it. Not to mention the complicated situation that I walked into. And then just the inability to like actually grieve in a normal way to be with people. I still don't even get to be with my mom much. And that's like all I want to do. And so I push pause. So now winter for me. And this is also being like, you know what, I'm pushing start. I'm ready to go there because it was nice to be distracted, but actually it's still in me and it comes out in ways that cannot always be productive. And when you're when you ignore it, that's what happens is I feel like it comes out in unproductive ways.
David : Yeah, the visual that I have in my head as you're talking is like it's something to hold in your hands and acknowledge that it's there and there's this light that comes from it. There's a darkness that comes from it. It just is something that to tangibly hold. So I think sometimes that very practically speaking you can't take the space to grieve but also during this next season, during a winter in your life or a winter moment, what does it look like to truly sit in it? And there's something really, I think valuable that comes out of it. I think also, you alluded to this earlier you said it, that grief can be this guide. You just said that no one talks about the business of death. But they should. Well here you, through grief, have gone through something that maybe a lot of people have not. And you can talk about it and you can be that guide for others. Like Beth and I, we just celebrated our oldest son, he just turned three over this past weekend. We have a one year old. We had three miscarriages before. We actually had a stillbirth at 21 weeks, and just, you know, devastating. And it was in that moment, it was the same thing or all of these women came forward. Oh, yeah, that happened. But it was something that we didn't, no one talks about. But since then, Beth has had friends that have had miscarriages and stillbirths, and just a lot of grief around birth. And she's been able to be a guide, she's reached out to strangers who she sees friends of friends to say, Hey, I'm here for you if you need anything, and people have taken her up on that.
Mary : Yeah, it does, I think that it ends up being that on many occasions when you go through something that is so charged that through that, you can create space to create connection, right, some of the strongest connections come through shared pain. And it's kind of like, you know, the first time you become a parent, suddenly you have this understanding of parents that you didn't or you will understand your own parents more. So I think that the same sort of perspective can be given through death, through life through whatever it may be, and that perspective can really be channeled to guide yourself and guide others. And, you know, one thing that someone told me that had experienced so much loss, she lost her brother when she was a teenager. Then soon thereafter, she lost her mom to a terminal illness. And then within a year, she lost her father, unexpectedly, she lost her entire family within a few year period. She said something that I thought just was so necessary of thinking about that is important, for those that are maybe trying to support someone grieving is to actually bring the person that they've lost or the topic or the concept, whatever it may be, that has been lost up to say, Hey, I know that is still with or within you, it doesn't, like we said it's not linear, it doesn't go away. And I think that as a culture, we could try and acknowledge it more rather than ignoring it and just letting it go away. Because, you know, the loss of my dad now sits with me, you know, the loss of your, you know, in your miscarriages and your stillbirths, they will sit with you. And so what is it like to acknowledge it, but not make someone uncomfortable, but that it can be both that we can still be existing and thriving, but that we can also still have a piece of us that is grieving. And that will always grieve and that just adds to who we are and the complexity of us as humans, but to not try to like make it go away, because it doesn't go away. And that's okay, too. So, David Kessler lost his son in the last few years. And his work on grief. He's a grief expert, he has actually added a sixth stage to grief called meanings. So the five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. And so I think that that's why it feels linear many times because the word acceptance, I think, to me can be confusing. You're like, Oh, well, then I'm accepting like, I'm, I'm good with it. In actuality, it just means that you can flow in and out. But the sixth stage that he added after the loss of his son was meaning and I thought that was so exactly what we're talking about here. Like to me, meaning is almost synonymous with creativity, that it's not that, okay, I've made sense of the fact that someone has died or that I lost something because it makes sense. It doesn't have to make sense, it can be senseless. But that one thing that he shared on Brene Brown's podcasts that I thought was so incredible was that the meaning that came from through him in this was that while death is inevitable, he much rather would have had the time that he had with his son prior. And that was the meaning that he found, it was the meaning that preceded the death, not what followed it. And I was like, I stopped in my tracks. Like I it was like a speechless feeling for me where I was like, right, like, I wouldn't trade my life with my father prior, no matter how complicated it was, at times, I would not trade any of that, in exchange to experience death, which is an inevitable thing. That comes with the territory. So to experience the great joys and highs and lows and loves and drama that comes with life and relationship, like he had to have been alive. The only other way to have avoided his death would be that he would have never existed. No, thank you. And that comes up with 2020. Like, had I not lost two jobs, I would not be doing the work right now with you, as my friend and in like, maybe I but I don't know what it could have manifested as maybe I feel like a lot of times, there's things that could have come about in many ways, but the timing surely would have been different. And I would rather have lost those jobs. And understood what I did not want to recreate through the loss, then not?
David : Yeah, right. It could have manifested into something similar, but not to the depth that we're looking forward to or
Mary : much delayed.
David : Yeah. And you and I were talking through what this podcast can do and the work and and I even think like maybe the challenge to you listener is, can you create the space to just grieve for a moment and rest in it? And then from that, what does it look like to move forward?
Mary : Yeah, and I'm thinking like, Okay, if I was listening to this, and someone was telling me to give space to grieve, I would maybe be, you know, frustrated, because that doesn't sound fun. And I think that that's why it's important to, to channel it into a creative way. Because that allows you to have a conversation with yourself, rather than maybe putting that not putting, not that that's intentional, but that when sometimes you're talking with someone and you're talking about grief, it could be also uncomfortable for them. So there's an exchange there. And that to me, through journaling, through picking piano back up. Thank you, David, and Grace, my sister who, through that, I have been able to have a conversation with myself that is productive with grief, instead of having to do it in a relational way. Because I think that everyone right now has their own version of grief. And sometimes it can take a turn for the negative where it ends up being, like, you're just talking about the crap that happened, and that it doesn't you're like almost too in it, instead of moving through it. So I've found that even though it's hard for me, because I'm so relational, that actually turning inward, and doing things that are creative expression, like journaling, or piano for me, has been helpful to be able to still have that conversation and still create space with grief, but not necessarily in interpersonal way.
[outro-music]
David : So work ahead. So we have work to do.
Mary : Yeah, and I think what's cool about some of the people that we're going to be speaking to on this is that there's some really incredible outlets that people have created as a result of grief that I know many will resonate with, and I can't wait to learn more so that I can try them out myself.
David : Well, yeah, 2020 has definitely been something to grieve, but something I think, to celebrate and to maybe acknowledge as a gift too, and I certainly hope that, I'm very much looking forward to those interviews as well. Just so we can learn the tools to sit with it, learn the tools to process. I really love how we talked about how it's not linear. That to me feels like you can still flow in and out of grief moments. And that's all good and healthy and natural. So
Mary : yeah. And that the meaning this new sixth stage that David Kessler has brought forth is less about making sense of something that may feel senseless, but more about what preceded and and where is the meaning of the purpose there? And how can we lean into that and feel a sense of gratitude or not even, maybe it's not gratefulness that you find, but just acknowledgement, so that you can move through to find the creativity that is burning inside of you, and share that, even if it's just with yourself?
David : Well, I mean, that right there, gives me hope.
Mary : So please tune into the upcoming episodes that we have on grief. I am so excited about every single one that we found. And if you have a story of grief to share, please share with us so that we can create a community to support each other in finding creative outlets. Share a podcast with those that you think may benefit from this work as well.
David : Yeah, this is definitely something to share, and to have these harder conversations with people. That's definitely part of the process.
Mary : Thanks for listening and be well.
