Ep 19 - Crazy Grateful Interview with Monica Scalf
Listen in as we interview Monica Scalf! She is the Creator of Crazy Grateful, an online gathering place for people who want to look on the bright side of life. You can learn more at crazygrateful.com, or on instagram @crazygrateful.
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TRANSCRIPT:
David : Well, hello, everyone, welcome to the third place podcast, I'm super excited to introduce you to my friend, Monica. Monica. and I have known each other for a while, and have constantly talked about just leadership and business. And Monica specializes in DISC assessments. And she's led several meetings with our team, just as we hire new folks. In fact, we have several new employees. And so Monica is going to help lead us through that. But I wanted to bring it here because you also, when you wear another hat, have a blog and platform called crazy grateful. So this has been a conversation that you've had for quite a while. And I just have really enjoyed getting your weekly emails. Because especially this year, it seems like it's really hard to be grateful. So, Monica, thank you for joining us. And welcome.
Monica : Thank you so much for having me, David. And Mary, I'm really looking forward to this.
Mary : Yeah, I am extremely excited about this, because I got to, you know, kind of creep on the work that you're doing. And got so inspired. And this is such a timely conversation. And it seems like there's no better person to talk to gratitude about than you.
Monica : Well, thanks.
Mary : So just to get started, like, I think the first thing I want to know is, you know, a lot of people are able to make their work focused around one very specific thing. And I found that I find that to be very interesting and inspiring. And for you, you know, it's gratitude. So clearly, it's like, there's one word that can kind of like, box it all together. And I'm wondering why gratitude, like what brought you to this work?
Monica : Yeah, so I often admire people who can do that, too. And to hear myself described like that is a little bit of a milestone, because it's taken such a long time to get to that point. So for the last 10 years, I've been doing corporate training and speaking and writing all things professional development, and it was always about how do you create more positive and productive environments. And so that's really where I spent my time, but there was always this pebble in my shoe that wanted to help people live better, not just at work, but just their one life, how do you live your one life better. And what I recognized is that is a lot about creating positive emotion. And one of the easiest pathways to positive emotion is gratitude. And so it just became a really natural fit. And that became the extension of the work well group. So I often say I just want to help people create pathways to work and live well. And the work well group is on the workplace side and crazy grateful is just on the lifestyle side.
Mary : Yet that's so the workwell group is sort of the overarching of what you do, but the gratitude is just a piece of it?
Monica : That's right. So the workwell group is the economic engine, let's call it that allows crazy grateful to happen. So crazy grateful is a blog, it's a weekly email, and its sole purpose is to encourage people to live a better daily life. And the entry point to that, for all of that work is through gratitude. How do you practice gratitude in your day to day to help you have a better day, but also just just make the world a brighter place?
Mary : So would you say that we're sort of stricken with having mostly negative emotion then and so you're trying to be a remedy for that through the positive emotion?
Monica : Yeha, I think that we are naturally attracted to the negative because of evolutionary purposes, but also, just the climate that we live in right now. There is so much negativity out there. And it's really easy for us to absorb it if we're not being mindful. And so my purpose with crazy grateful is to just nudge people and give them kind of that little elbow in the rib that says, hey, there's a lot of great stuff out here too. And there's a lot of people who are helpers and there's a lot of positive emotion if we just slow down enough to look for it.
David : Well, I love that. You said it twice the slow down just now and just the mindfulness behind gratitude. For whatever reason, you're right, our brain is just attracted to the negative and it remembers the negative i read recently in a study that if you have a positive experience, you have to think about it like actually pause to think about it for seven seconds before it sticks and becomes a memory. versus if you have a negative experience, it's totally Velcro, it just immediately sticks. And the memories that stick with me like some of the earliest memories I have are grade school, which was all overall a positive experience for me, I still have like three or four of these, like ultra negative memories that randomly will creep up. And so the mindfulness around gratitude is, I think, critical. Mm hmm.
Monica : Yeah, that's right, those negative emotions can kind of stick like Velcro. And you gave such a great example. And one that I think we can relate to is that I read somewhere, it's like, if you go to if you go somewhat place and you have a negative experience, you're much more likely to share the negative experience with friends and family than you are. If you go somewhere and have a really positive experience. You're not as likely to share that. And I, and I'm trying to just remind people, like share the good stuff to not just the negativity,
David : yeah, that shows up in business that if you have a customer with a negative experience, they'll tell 10 people, if you have a customer that has a neutral experience, they tell no one. If you have someone that has an amazingly positive experience, they'll tell one person doesn't. So that's all on average for business to
Mary : Do you feel like it's hard to be a spokesperson or in the spotlight for being grateful? Like I think about something that David and I are faced with is when we're always saying, Okay, let's try to find truths in the in between. And then we're, we're, you know, sometimes our conversations can get to a place where we're feeling like we're having a really hard time being in the in between. and I you know, I think of Ellen to where Ellen like, you know, she was the be kind lady, and then that backlash that has happened when any sort of negative press, and I'm wondering, like, how does that play or play out in your own life, as you know, someone that's really standing behind gratitude, as you're one of your strong core values when you're also human?
Monica : It's so true, because I definitely try to resist the image of like, oh, there's that lady who's crazy grateful. Like, that's not what I'm, that's not what I'm going for. It's, but it is true that sometimes, I think when you're in the space of positivity and positive emotion, there can be a tendency for people to disregard that as something that is extraneous, or superfluous. And when the reality is that we all have lives that are challenging, and we all face difficulties, and now we're saying just in the world, I mean, so much adversity, but that is when we need things like gratitude, and joy, and a positive emotion even more. So it's not to say, this is all there is, you should only be feeling gratitude, you should never think that anything is harder, you should never have a negative emotion. That's not it. It's more about how do I take those emotions and really bring them to the forefront of my life when things are most challenging?
Mary : I love that because I feel like it just brings it back to being that there's a spectrum of being human and that gratitude is not, I like that you're saying that I'm not just going to stay within this one place. But trying to acknowledge or practice away that you can really default to that place, it seems more productive and life giving. And I find that like accessing gratitude. You know, there's a lot of tools out there, like gratitude journals, and I'm sure you know a ton and I want to hear which ones, which tools you know, and what you sort of empower people to do. But one of the ones that resonated the most with me was when I was doing a 21 day, Deepak Chopra and Oprah gratitude meditation. I'm sure you've heard of it. He encouraged you to look at something and express gratitude, but to imagine that thing smiling back at you or sort of extending that same gratitude back and when I started to personify things like I looked at a tree and I was like, Oh, that's so pretty, like the fall leaves are changing. And then it gave me something in return, then I felt an exchange that actually made me experience gratitude for that stuff more than the journaling that I had tried in the past.
Monica : Yeah. You're right, I think many people, when they think about gratitude and how to get more of it into their lives, they think, Oh, I'm going to write down three things every night that I'm grateful for, you know, that's kind of the default mode. And that is great. I encourage people to do that. But I think that you can interact with gratitude in more ways than just that. So for example, each month on crazy grateful there is an essay that comes out. And so in November, the essay is all about more gritty gratitude. And so gritty gratitude to me is naming and appreciating the really difficult things in your life that have happened, but that have brought you to the place where you are. And so that's a gratitude practice where you're interacting on a deeper level. Instead of just, you know, these are the three things I'm grateful for today, or these are the 10 things that happened this week that I'm grateful for. It's really like getting in there and seeing like, wow, I can truly appreciate be grateful for this thing. That wasn't easy when I went through it. But now that I look back was such a key part made me who I am
Mary : which is like everything. I mean, like when I think about it, it's like once you start to do that practice, then you would realize that the times that were the most challenging, usually brought some of the greatest joy.
Monica : Exactly. And that goes back to the point we were talking about earlier, which is, I try to just be really honest, in the fact that life is challenging. But can we plug in and encourage people to see the good stuff? if not more so but at least an equal measure, then we're focusing on the negative stuff.
David : Well and, I mean, you started this blog in this work way before 2020. You know, so I think a lot of people are really wrestling with this being a hard year. Like, I'm curious what you were looking forward to at the beginning of the year before all of the pandemic started. And, you know, I think they were for so many people, I knew so much optimism for 2020. But now that the year has played out, like how have you been wrestling with this tension of the harshness that 2020 has brought for many and, and gratitude?
Monica : Mm hmm. Yeah, that's such a great question. Because at the beginning of the year, so excited about so many things. So with family, you know, our son was a senior in college and getting ready to graduate, you know, our daughter had just started her first full time job. With work, this was set to be the best revenue year ever for the workwell group, you know, 10 years of working toward that. And then when March happened, and everything changed so rapidly, it was deeply unsettling. And I could still recognize how fortunate I was in all of the fallout that I didn't have major life, financial, otherwise crises, but yet still dealing with that disappointment of those things, not turning out the way that I thought that they would fast forward to where we are today. And it almost brings me to tears that this has been one of the most growth filled and beautiful years of my life. And I think that recognizing, even last month, you know, making a tangible list of the things that have happened during this time period that I'm so grateful for. And there are still plenty of those things that happened many things that didn't, that I wish would have. But I could look at that list and really see how the things on that list would have never been able to happen without the current circumstances.
Mary : So I'm wondering where has the growth then and if it's been within your work around gratitude, I see such a clear connection to what's you know, unfolded over the last year to people wanting to tap into gratitude more, but is there anything you can tell us about the audience that you have that are coming to you that are seeking gratitude tools and skills and and has grown directly from everything that's happened?
Monica : Yeah, it definitely has grown and I think the audience is seeking more positive emotion or more positivity. And so I think that's where the entry point comes is they think, Oh, this looks like something interesting. That is not the same old news. I'm watching on TV, or maybe it's a distraction in some ways from the things that they're the adversity that they're dealing with in their life. So I think they come seeking some light. And then I think what they find when they get there, and there's been a lot of really positive feedback from the Saturday morning newsletter, so 6am, every Saturday morning, the newsletter goes out, it has an encouraging note at the very beginning, and that it has three things that have brightened my world that week, it could be podcasts, books, products, whatever it is. But I think what people find is in that encouraging note, at the beginning, is that I'm very honest about the struggles that I've had through all of this. So as a person who is very plugged into gratitude and positive emotion, I'm, I still struggle to, and I think those times when I'm vulnerable to say, you know what, I cried three times this week. And when I'm just really honest about that people, it resonates with people to say, you know, what, she's she's kind of going through this too, but then always putting an encouraging spin on, you know, that week, like, what are the things that I could find to be grateful for, even in the midst of all of that, and when I've looked, I've never not come up with something to be grateful for during those times.
Mary : Yeah. Well, you and me both about crying, and then. But also, I'm curious, does gratitude ever come out of boundary setting? I think of you, mentioning how people are looking for more positive emotion. And there's such an influx of negativity, whether it's, you know, social media, or media or just the environment of like, sharing a remote working with your partner for the first time, and you get to observe their wave of emotions throughout the workday that you may be used to have segregated, right? And so does gratitude come out of also boundary setting to say, I'm going to choose to not just choose this positive emotion, but maybe not choose something else?
Monica : I definitely think that's true, I think that boundaries are a big issue for a lot of people and I am plugged into many different communities. But one community that I have done a lot of training for and I think are a big part of my audience are women who are working. And they're kind of figuring out and saying no was a problem before this. But even during this with so much more to do, especially working from home, with kids at home, all of that it's trying to figure out how to set those boundaries. And I think when people can define like, I can do this, but I can't do that can be really empowering. And so if you can find gratitude and being like, you know, I set the limit here, and this is all I can do or asking for help. That can also be very empowering, or create a sense of gratitude when you allow others to help you. So I think that, you know, really generating those positive emotions through the entry point of gratitude is what a lot of my work is about.
Mary : So, with that being said, even when I was looking into gratitude more, I noticed that there are also some sides of gratitude that maybe have a negative connotation that they can be accompanied with, like being complacent, or that it's hard to access. That it's not even something that's possible. And I'm wondering, like, what would you say to some of those myths around gratitude as a whole?
Monica : Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that goes back to sometimes people discounting gratitude or positive emotion in general, because they think it isn't possible during times of adversity. And I think that my message is really to empower yourself to be able to change the story anytime you want to. And one of the ways that I have continually found in my life to change that story, is through the power of gratitude, and looking at and like I said, before, gritty gratitude, like looking at and appreciating the hard things that you're going through right now. And even if you can't appreciate them right now, in the moment, if you have done a practice, where you've gone back and looked at the things in your life that were challenging and how they changed you in positive ways, that can create more resilience in you during the moment when things are hard like you can think back up, gosh, this is really hard. And I would choose to be anywhere else, but in this exact spot right now. But I also am reminded of all of those things when I went through that gritty gratitude exercise of things that were hard that ended up working out really well for me. So I think that those types of sentiments about gratitude, creating complacency is not the kind of gratitude practices that I'm promoting.
Mary : Yeah, like one of our last interviews, we interviewed a psychology professor, and she said, facts are fear and stories are suffering. And I feel like that just resonates so much that it's, if you can go to this fact place where I'm in gritty gratitude, like one very basic example I have was when I was a college student, I remember, the anxiety and fear I would get around finals was so intense. And the mantra that I made up at that time was like, Well, you've done it this many times before. And you'll do it again. And I had to go to that fact, place where I was like, you'll do it again, like it'll, you know, that anxiety will soften, but going away from the story of like, I'm going to fail, or I'm going to do this, but instead leaning into like, just the truth of like, okay, you've been here before, there is familiarity there, and what came out the other end and remembering the relief and and sort of sitting in that choosing that perspective, rather than the one that would be more debilitating
Monica : Yes, it's almost like muscle memory, right? Like, you knew that that was something within you, and you had flexed that muscle before. And then when you had to do it again, you've kind of you, you built yourself up, and you said, Hey, I do have this muscle, I can do this again. And I think that's a really important point for work around gratitude. And the positive emotions that I'm trying to promote, is that you it's not about, you get to a place of, I'm working toward having the right amount of gratitude. And when I get there, I'll be finished. It's like, this is the work that is ongoing. And the more that we can train ourselves to do things like these gratitude practices to look at, okay, this is challenging in my life. But what else can I relate that to that I know I can get through this? That is the prac, the daily practice that has to happen, for people to experience more positive emotion
David : A tool that has surprisingly, just now come to mind through this conversation is, when I ask others for really hard feedback, whether it's in business or in conflict, or an idea, like, you both know me well enough to know that I always have like crazy ideas, and they're big ideas. And one of my immediate questions when I present an idea to people is, okay, poke holes in it. And sometimes they don't feel good. And sometimes the holes, like shoot the whole thing down. But to me, I'm so grateful for that. And it now has become a practice. And what I think has surprised me was, it is coming from this place of gratitude. Like, I really appreciate your feedback, I think that you're gonna give me honest feedback. And I want it to be harsh, so that it can be successful. And I know, so there's some trust established, but I never thought about that coming from a place of gratitude. But that's where I sat for just a moment.
Monica : Yeah, I think that's so true. And having worked with so many different businesses and leadership teams, we teach, you know, feedback is a gift. And one of the exercises we take people through is when as a time you receive feedback that you wished you would have heard it sooner by most times. Yes. And when people look at it from that standpoint, it makes it easier for them to give difficult feedback to other people, because they recognize, gosh, I do wish somebody would have told me that sooner so that I could have adjusted. And it makes it easier for them to give that gift of feedback to a team member, even when it's really challenging or hard.
Mary : Yeah, I was helping to lead this hemp Tea Company earlier this year. And one thing that we even acknowledged though, is that feedback doesn't have to be just negative. I think oftentimes, people think that feedback always has to be this constructive feedback zone, when in actuality, if feedback is also this positive reinforcement or you know, validating people's work, or all these other things, that's still feedback. And the more challenging or gritty, harder to digest feedback is bundled in with all of the positive feedback. And then it sort of softens this, like pain around that word feedback. And instead it's all the same thing. It doesn't just have to be, oh, here's an opportunity for you to learn.
Monica : Yeah, exactly. I think creating the culture of feedback is always advantageous in organizations, because it does mean that you're giving feedback for the positive, and you're also giving feedback when people can adjust. And so it just becomes part of the fabric of your workplace. And I think that it allows the feedback to land.
David : Well Mary, you were just talking about positive feedback, how many of us struggle like at least? Yeah, I know a lot of people that struggle with receiving praise. I'm like, No, no, like, I don't like that. And maybe part of the feedback is learning to receive both the negative and the positive. Because I think what I've had, and it's, it's more of a practice, it's not, I don't feel like I've embraced it at all. But when people are trying to say nice things about me, I just stop and say thank you, rather than try to deflect,
Mary : do you think that's because that means that you're being humble and you don't want to like verge on being egotistical or like, I think that there's something that we've feel like when we reject positive feedback, or that that means whatever we assign that emotion or virtue to is greater than being someone that receives feedback, positive feedback, like really well, like, Oh, of course, thank you. Like, doesn't that suddenly? What is that?
David : Yeah, it's definitely part of it, for sure.
Monica : I was gonna say that made me think about another gratitude practice that comes out of a book by Stephen leader and the book is called more beautiful than before. And it has so many great lessons on gratitude, and just in general, but he talks about doing gratitude visits in that book, and how you write a letter to someone that has positively impacted your life. And then you actually go and deliver the letter and read it to them now, in COVID times, probably wouldn't be able to do that. But who's to say we couldn't do a video recording of that. But, those are all the positive things that maybe someone doesn't even know how they've affected you over your life. And it's like, what a gift to give them that kind of feedback. Instead of waiting for when you went through a really challenging time, and they kind of came in to help you, it's natural to say thank you then, but to just say, thank you, when there's no other agenda, except I just want to give you this gift of gratitude. Like how wonderful would that be, but it would also be kind of hard to accept on the other end to like David saying, you know, might be hard to listen to that letter. But I think someone would cherish that for a lifetime.
Mary : I've considered myself someone to be pretty complimentary. I have an innate desire to find. I'm a romantic, I'm a romantic, I'm an idealist. So, in moments, I find myself that that sometimes comes off as very complimentary, where I want to acknowledge something positive. And sometimes I worry like, does that ever desensitize the people from that complementary nature that gratitude, like if you use the word, you know, I love you too much that it doesn't hold as much weight. And, you know, have you experienced any of that where it's like, by defaulting only to the positive that suddenly it doesn't actually like sink in and or have as much value?
Monica : I do think that sometimes I feel that there is a perception that Oh, Monica, she's so positive, she can't possibly understand this kind of negative part of life. And it's like, I just have such a different framework on that. It's like, No, I'm the same. I'm human, I definitely wake up and have days where I'm not in my most positive mind frame, but I feel like I have access to all these tools that get me there pretty quickly. So when I find myself kind of going down that spiral, I have a much easier time accessing things to kind of reverse it. And that's what I hope that I'm sharing with people. So not a false sense of just be positive and everything will be fine. No, it's like, what are the actions? Like? What are we doing day to day that we can have a little bit more control and influence over that, to reverse that spiral when we need to?
David : So we're just a couple days away from Thanksgiving. And again, I think everyone is just all over the map. But it is a time that we pause and reflect and think through the gratefulness of the year. What do you say? How, like, what are tools that we can be thinking through that are easy to implement? Like, whether it's specific to Thanksgiving or not? Like, how do we present well to this space?
Monica : I think this Thanksgiving will be so different for so many people. So we're going to be dealing with a loss of some of those traditions that have been years and years and years in the making. And I think that, recognizing these things are most likely temporary, is a good tool to kind of have in your back pocket. And then if they are temporary, making the most of whatever environment you find yourself in for this Thanksgiving Day, whether that's connecting with people via video chat, or whether that's taking a few minutes before you head into whatever type of celebration, you're going to have to acknowledge this is going to be different, but I'm going to make the most of it. So like, setting your mindset up for that could be a really great thing. I think it would be a totally different conversation on those practices if we weren't in this weird time period. Because a lot of times it's about how do you deal with your family members at Thanksgiving, or, you know, the people who drive you crazy. And one of the best pieces of advice I think I've heard in that realm is don't expect people to act any differently than they normally do. And so when we set ourselves up to think someone's going to be completely different, just because it's Thanksgiving, we usually come out disappointed every time.
David : Yeah. Well, I can tell you like, even with this whole year, even if this pandemic, you know, comparing to 100 years ago with the Spanish flu, I've said multiple times, I'm just so grateful that I'm living through this version instead of that version, because we have zoom and Google meet and Hangouts and all of the technology tools. And we even just a few years ago, we probably didn't have all those as developed as they are today. So maybe the Thanksgiving is grateful that we have tools like zoom, and then grateful that I only spend an hour on zoom instead of all day
Monica : Exactly. I think we can all relate.
Mary : It also makes me think of absence makes the heart grow fonder, that there's an element of like, worked in gratitude, just by the fact that you that things are not what they used to be, or may not be. And so therefore, you're like, Oh, I actually kind of appreciated that there's a part of me that misses that. So there's like, the gratitude sort of baked into it.
David : We might be missing the people that annoy us the most like the next year, we're gonna give them a big hug, and then go back to fighting.
Monica : and then be driven crazy by them. But for sure, I think that there is an underlying appreciation that has come out of this entire time period that we can truly appreciate things that we once took for granted.
Mary : So where can our listeners find more about you and everything that you do? And how can they join the crazy grateful tribe?
Monica : go to crazygrateful.com, you can easily sign up there for our newsletter, can follow us on Instagram @crazygrateful. And if you're interested in more of the workplace or professional development side, you can check out theworkwellgroup.com.
David : I think that there's a lot of people that would really, like you said for me, I've gotten the emails for the last couple years since you launched but this year, especially, has been a breath of fresh air every time I open it every Saturday morning. So thank you just so much for the work around that and sharing that message. I think it was important before it's even more important now.
Monica : Thank you, David, that makes my heart happy. I'm grateful that you shared that with me.
Mary : Thank you, Monica, Be well
