Ep 18 - Wrestling with Gratitude
As we enter into Thanksgiving, how do we approach the feelings of Gratitude in what has been a very difficult year?
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TRANSCRIPT:
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : We invite you into the third place.
David : Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to the third place podcast. So today is, what is today, November 4,
Mary : what is today
David : Today is the day after the election and just kind of the reality of the day. It's a pretty heavy day. But life still has to go on. And we still have to go to work. And I had work meetings and sales meetings and production meetings and babysitting dropping off and all the normalities of life that still kind of have to take place. And we wanted to put together an episode for Thanksgiving. So we're recording a couple weeks early, but what does gratitude look like in 2020? And I think it's super appropriate that we are talking about this today. It's totally 2020. Like that's kind of a new word, right? Oh, that's so 2020. And it's like a cuss word almost. And
Mary : it is a four letter word.
David : It is a four letter or
Mary : number word.
David : Yep. So yeah, like how have you talk about gratitude? In the year of 2020? And I guess it's serendipitous. Oddly, that we're talking about this today.
Mary : Yeah. So you're hearing us probably right around Thanksgiving. So maybe there's some resolve? And then to me, I think it's just the work keeps going. Right? And so when we were talking about gratitude, I kept saying to David, I was like, how do you say thanks when you feel like you have no thanks to give when everything's been played against you this year. And David and I sit on two sides of the spectrum, really, with the year that we've had, and what we're really wanting to talk about is like, okay, there's this idea of gratitude that gratitude can be like, we're trying to make a distinction between superficial gratitude and gratitude with depth. So really, our goal and having this conversation around gratitude, around Thanksgiving is not as obvious as it seems it's more like what what is gratitude would depth look like, where you acknowledge everything that has happened in order to really sit in it and then come through it or with it, rather than just sort of glazing over it, and just getting to this, like, very positive state that doesn't actually acknowledge what has been and what is right now?
David : Well, and hopefully, by the time this episode publishes, we do have some clarity on who the next president is. But even if we don't, and no matter who does win, it feels like, there are still things that are going to need a lot of work. And there are still things that we need to try to find gratitude in. I think, for me, as I'm, again, sitting in the emotions of today, I feel that much more. Gosh, I don't even know what the right word is - energized, or maybe charged, is the better word that this work of the third place is so much more important, again, regardless of who the President will be, no matter what, we have to push further into these kinds of difficult conversations that we have to create the spaces that are safe, to have harder conversations. And, you know, I'm not thankful that we're all going through a hard time. But I am thankful that the hard time is maybe what's leading people to realize that we need to figure out how to have better conversations. It sucks. Right now. There's an acknowledgement of it's just crap. But that hard moment is what gives me hope. There's this collective human spirit that together we can get through it all.
Mary : Yeah, and the inspiration of this conversation really came out of me telling you right that this has been the hardest year of my life and I'm so grateful for it that I wouldn't change a thing. And we sat there and we were like, Whoa, that's an intense statement to say that, and it's maybe a little bit contradictory. And really, you know, it's my own statement. It's not anyone else's. But my relationship to this year, I had a lot of loss. And, you know, we plan to sort of dive into the conversation of grief around 2020. And so really, we're talking about not the grief for the loss of 2020 yet, but how to acknowledge to find the gratitude that can come through because for me, I think that part of the reason why I feel a sense of gratefulness is because I allowed myself to fully feel and sink my teeth into every very uncomfortable and painful experience that has been a result of this year. And I'm sure many, many can agree. So I think I said to you, David, to I was like, because yesterday, you were so tired, and we will and you were sitting here being like, why am I so tired? Why am I so tired? And, and I was like, gosh, this is the same thing as trying to find gratitude. It's like, if you ignore the feeling that you have, and you try to rationalize it and understand why you are feeling a certain thing, then it distracts you from just being in that thing, so that you can then move through that thing. Because otherwise, if you're just tired and tired and tired, and you don't acknowledge that you're just tired, for whatever reason, it doesn't really matter why. And you let yourself be tired. And you say, Okay, I'm tired, then it just sort of like this, you stay tired, rather than being able to make a shift in some capacity. And I think that a lot of my experience of this year has been like, Okay, I'm sad, okay, I'm angry, okay, I'm exhausted. Okay, I'm overwhelmed. Okay, whatever. And that was in large part due to the people I surround myself with, but allowed me to really be in it. But that instead of ignoring it, or trying to skirt over it, I really feel like the gratitude is coming from like, man, I really felt it all.
David : Yeah, there's like an embrace of the pain. Well, first, there's like this acknowledgment, and then there's this embrace of, and then it's not even to get quickly out of it is like to sit with it for a bit.
Mary : Right. Definitely sit with it. But that's uncomfortable. And I think that that goes back to like, you know, if you don't know already, the third place is about really sitting in some discomfort. And it's an invitation to be uncomfortable, because we're so familiar with having a perspective that might be this or that. And we're inviting you as listeners in to, to allow yourself and allow others to have uncomfortable conversations and to have uncomfortable feelings and to extend safety to yourself and to others so that you can shift from this or that to the this and that and that there's not one way or the other, but really how can we reside and understanding the other way and then moving through it, to really acknowledge that in between, you can still find your like your home, but move through to the in between and, and find peace and knowing that there's not just two buckets of reasoning or ideas or feelings or perspectives.
David : Yeah. Well I like what you said to like, sometimes gratitude can come across as superficial or complacent,
Mary : or annoying. Especially now, right? Like if someone's like, Oh, I'm so grateful. Like, I was scared to tell you, I'm so grateful for this shitty year. That's kind of that can be annoying
David : Yeah, if someone came into our roastery, and was just like, all super bubbly today, I'd be like, What is wrong with you? So that's like that moving away from the superficial version of gratitude. But actually, the depth of gratitude, I think is a way or a component of that is is sitting with and acknowledging this the stuff that's really hard,
Mary : right? And we looked up the root of the word gratitude, because something that I think was really fascinating to us is when we looked up the root of the word politics, and we're like, what's the root of the word gratitude? We found out that it was about being pleasing, about being welcoming and about being agreeable. And so much of the climate that we're in right now is saying Maybe do the opposite, the antithesis of all of that, you know, being pleasing and welcoming and agree, you know, welcoming, maybe not so much. But being pleasing and agreeable is sort of, like ignoring the rest of it. And so we're like, that's what we've sort of defined as superficial gratitude is that pleasing that agreeable nature where, like, I love how you mentioned, David, that when you go to Thanksgiving, that maybe you, we like, drop the rest of what's happening so that we can be in this place of like, Okay, I'm not gonna go there, I'm not going to acknowledge all of the pain. And so I can really be gratuitous to, you know, you go round, I'm so grateful for you, and for you, and this and this. But in actuality, there is this thing that's happening, many, many things happening behind you, and you drop that. And that's like, that's gratitude that's pleasing and agreeable. It's like, I'm not going to ruffle any feathers. It's like fear, fear based gratitude, rather than like, this depth that we're trying to encourage where you are allowed to first acknowledge and go there and then be able to open up a door to grant a sense of gratitude that I feel like is way more rich.
David : Right? Well, and to continue into that kind of story. So gratitude is pleasing, welcoming and agreeable. For me, you know, and I do feel some anxiety around Thanksgiving, I mean, quite, quite honestly, probably won't even happen this year. Or if it does, it's going to be in zoom form. But the reason why is because I, you know, I'm going to be coming to the table in this really hard year in this really hard election season, and with family on all ends of the spectrum. And I don't want to talk about it. Like, I just don't
Mary : and you don't want to talk about it, right? Because it's just like, why I guess?
David : Yeah, well, it's like, some of the first work is to sit with and acknowledge, like, the frustration that I feel currently around politics. And again, like, even if my guy wins, I'm still not happy. Because we're really just so divided, it makes me it just tears me up inside, I just don't understand it. So I'm gonna sit with that for a while. And I'll probably sit with that for a long while. And again, I think it'll only emboldened me that much more that this work is just so important. And building the audience is just so important. And having these harder conversations is so much more important. But, the agreeable what it made me feel was, I do love my family, like, I genuinely do love them. So it's almost like it gave me permission to say gratitude is for a moment for me to set those things aside, to set my feelings aside, to acknowledge them. But I'm going to step away from them for a moment. And just remember why I'm grateful for my family. And in one way, you could say that is a little bit being superficial and fake. But in another way, for me it was a way to is like I had permission to come or compartmentalize a little bit, where I could separate my pain and frustration. And remove it for a moment. So that I could be grateful, let's assume Thanksgiving does happen. Or if it does happen in that zoom call for that hour or whatever. I will only be grateful. And that's it. I'm not going to, I'm going to for a moment just take off the hat of pain and frustration and only sit in gratitude. Does that make sense?
Mary : It makes total sense and I actually liked that you brought that up because I actually hate that superficial comes off. It's been assigned to the word fake. And I disagree with that. Like I think superficial is just like staying on the surface. Like that's truly what it means is staying on the surface rather than it's not that you're fake. I actually feel like I could benefit and my family could benefit from being superficial like being on the surface level, not always having to have this depth that we're even encouraging now. Um, but that, you know, I don't think that you're being fake by any means. I do think that compartmentalizing is a gift. And actually, when I heard you say that, it made me feel like relief. Because there's only so much that we can take, there's only so much going there that we can do. So I think that that's also important to know like, when you don't feel as much security, then it's important to be able to sit in that compartmentalised space.
David : Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's everything that we always talk about when you just now said superficial is separate from fake. Again, I was like, Oh, I have permission to be superficial and surface level.
Mary : And you're not like any less of a person because I know that something is value to you as being super authentic,
David : right? And at this moment, it's okay that my family is only allowed to be surface level because if I open myself up, there's going to be wounds that are pushed,
Mary : right? Or maybe irrepairable.
David : Right. So the safety of the conversation is super officials only, it's only earned the superficial and that's okay.
Mary : You know my experience, so my dad and I, when he was alive, he ended up going to that superficial level with us because we had differing opinions on so many core values, whether it was religion, or politics or a lot of the things that you know, when we have master statuses. So in psychology, there's this thing called master statuses where you're like, I am a woman, I am a wife, I am a Democrat, I you know, those like, blanket statements where you're like, these are the things if I had to put myself in one bucket, we oppose on a lot of those. And I just remember that he chose this, and I'm sure this was a survival tactic for him too, and us as well, so that we could just enjoy each other's presence, instead of being always going to this place of like, let's talk about the things that we're opposing on because we're also trying to create, and feel connection and love, right. So you want to be able to have your time together, mostly be an experience of a positive experience, and not always negative or come away with like, man, I just, I remember something my sister sometimes would be like, I just wish we just didn't go there that time. And my family so often does, that I had did in his last years of his life feel a sense of gratitude for the fact that he didn't make us go there. And I see that as such wisdom now that he really ushered us into not going there rather than having to and that made it so that the experiences that we had were like not, there wasn't this negative energy around it, when you left where there was maybe a little bit of fatigue and anxiety or stress that like man, I just wish we wouldn't have done that like no regrets. So I think that there really is power in and a welcoming to to like just knowing when you can compartmentalize so that you can have some security for yourself and for others and and then there is this other side of it, though, to that. One thing I think about I think oftentimes I think of gratitude, or someone that's really grateful. I think of that as optimistic. It's in the same world as being optimistic. And sometimes those that are optimistic, like I said, like overly optimistic, like, overly sing-songy, like, everything's fine, I'm great, is annoying, because you're like, wait, it's not great. You can be both though you can be frustrated and sad and fazed and affected and all of the things and still feel optimistic and grateful. But that depth sometimes is a place that I want to push into a bit more because it feels more gratifying and like longer lasting. And I think of that feeling is like an exchange of joy, where there's like a lightness around it, where when someone really allows first to just go there and then get to a place of like, but I'm grateful for that as a result, then suddenly, I feel like that's like that's a contagious gratitude rather than a gratitude that goes and sort of in one ear and out the other.
David : Yeah. Well, I would love to hear more like, you know, we started at the beginning that this has been a really hard year for you, but also a really good year for you. I can tell you for me when I think of 2020. Yes, it's been a hard year, I really miss seeing friends. I really miss being able to travel unrestricted. I really miss being able to do lots of activities freely that I haven't been able to do. But
Mary : hashtag first world problems. Right?
David : exactly. That's exactly where I was gonna go. I also, overall it's been a good year. Our business has grown. I mean, it's been hard. We've had to pivot a lot. And so there's been a lot of work around that. But it's been growing, how many businesses can say that this year. Our work is this whole third place podcast. I just am incredibly grateful for, absolutely love every moment of it. Have it dream of what the future holds for it. And there's all these like things that 2020 has given to me that are really good. And to be honest with you, I do feel some guilt in. Without question, there's stuff about this year I don't like and I can't wait to get back to a version of normalcy. But it hasn't been a bad year for me.
Mary : Well, first of all, I hear you, and I understand that there's some guilt to come to that I think sometimes it's easier to sit in the victim role. That's something that I've always like, sat with where it's easier to be the person that is being affected rather than the person that's being unaffected. And I think that it's like, Okay, what if we can acknowledge that both are having experience. And while it might be easier to be like, to sort of rattle off a list of all the things that have been challenging, that doesn't mean that you haven't experienced challenge. And the really the best way I can explain this as so being someone that struggled with insomnia for many years, I remember in the beginning of my struggle with it, I got really upset when people would say that they didn't sleep last night, and that to them meant that they slept six or seven hours instead of they're like nine. And I got so frustrated by that. But then I realized that it's so dependent on what is sort of your normal, and if someone who's used to sleeping, and then doesn't sleep a night that can really be deeply affecting. So even if it's something that to someone who's used to not sleeping, and then that becomes that new caliber, that new familiarity, that it just doesn't matter, you can't actually decide what phases someone or not and at what degree. So even though you may, you know, because you're so good at comparing yourself to others and trying to find a very empathetic approach. So even though your guilt is coming from that you're comparing yourself to some of the tragedies that I had, in actuality, tragedy is happening on all sides of the spectrum. And something that, from my perspective, may have not fazed me could have rocked your world. So I think it's life giving to me to try to remember that to be like, okay, like, this person is really affected by losing two hours of sleep. I'm really resilient with that, because that's my, I'm familiar with that now, but I wasn't when I first was. Right. And that's life giving. And also that, I appreciate your capacity to be able to have guilt, though, too, because you're trying to just understand people more and, and support the pain that so many have felt in this time. And that's also important
David : Yeah, I feel like so maybe a better way to say it is less phased versus not phased. And then I always, I always this quote comes to my mind all the time, like even white male privilege, these kinds of conversations, the traumas that I did not experience as a kid where most people like experienced trauma 89% of adults have experienced a hard piece of trauma. I'm not one of those people. So when I first heard that stat and took kind of that trauma test, this quote came to mind is that from the very first Spider Man movie, there was this quote that he said, With great power comes great responsibility. So here's this year, that has overall been a really good year. So because of that, I feel like I have some weight and responsibility to try to be a rock for other people.
Mary : And you've been so that for me
David : Yeah. So that gift has been able to be transferred and used to help lift up others. I mean, and when I feel yeah, same thing, when I'm thinking through, what can I be doing to combat systematic racism? It's the same quote that always comes back to my mind, like I'm going to, I've been given a lot of privilege in my life. And I can enter rooms differently than women can and say my opinion or minorities and say my opinion, and it just carries different weight. It just is. But with that comes responsibility. So maybe if you're like me that has had a good year, so to speak. Can we acknowledge that it's a gift and can you use your gift to help other people?
Mary : Right, I love that you said like, I'm less phased rather than unfazed. Because it's not that you've not been fazed by what's happening. it's not been completely absent. Right? And, and then I also think that you're taking seriously around, okay, well, then if that's the case, then there is a weight on your shoulders because you are like, Okay, then how can I extend the grace that I've had over this year or this ease to support those that are feeling disease.
David : One other thing that you just said, though, is when you were talking about insomnia and comparison. So how I heard that was, right now again, with the election, so we're sitting in today, the overwhelming feeling I have of the day is some fatigue, how are we still finding ourselves in these principles of systemic racism, like I just don't understand it, and I'm tired. And I want to walk away from it for a moment, I want to take a break. And what it makes me want to do is try to go find, I want to interview a black woman who's had Thanksgiving, from the 1970s, or 60s, and where that person has never had a break before, but yet still had the energy to find some gratitude. Like, I feel like I have so much to learn from that kind of person. So the comparison, like I don't get much sleep, or when I have a bad night of sleep, it is only one or two hours less, where you were dealt with a lot less sleep for a lot longer. And your body kind of became used to that rhythm. And therefore, a night where you only slept six hours was really good. So it's this weird thing like, yeah, there's a lot of people out there that they don't get the privilege to be able to walk away. And that's okay. Because, and again, I can learn so much from that perspective. Because talk about resilience. Talk about someone I can learn how to have gratitude from is someone that has no reason to have gratitude. But they did.
Mary : Yeah, back to the whole, like, when How do you give things when you have no things to give? And that so there've been so many examples of people giving things despite that.
David : Yeah. So Mary, you did have a hard year. And he went through an awful lot. Yeah, I would love to hear what that perspective is, like, how are you approaching gratitude and Thanksgiving?
Mary : Well, so I, you know, a year ago, before the pandemic even hit, I lost a job. And then only four months after that, I lost another job. And then two weeks after I lost that job, my dad died. And that was only two weeks after the pandemic hit. So we were in quarantine. The strongest quarantine at the time.
David : I can't even wrap my mind around the grief that that would bring. But you didn't even have the space to grieve it. Because of COVID there was no gathering there was no like even what normally would be a grief thing wasn't available. So to not properly celebrate your dad's life is a whole nother layer of grief in that moment.
Mary : Yeah, and I remember like, you know, this was the first time I had lost someone that close to me, though, so I didn't know what was normal either, right? So for me all my benchmark, you know, I've lost my grandparents, I lost my grandparents, far younger in middle school. And that didn't really impact me the way obviously losing a parent did but that now my normal of grief is probably way different than then those that had lost people pre pandemic, but there's a lot of people that are in the same boat as me. So there was just a lot, a lot of loss. But what came of it, and I had to continue to remind myself to, even though that was the most challenging thing to remind myself during death of a parent, was that anytime I had had any turmoil or pain or discomfort, like I have always come out in the way of like, you know what, I don't regret any of that. I prefer that I don't want to be the version that I was prior. And I really attribute a lot of that to the fact that I allow myself to lament and process things and be kind of an intense version of a person through life shifts. And that I know who I can be that with. So through now having had you know, it's only been six months, which is crazy. And when I think about I'm like, Oh my goodness, my dad only died six months ago. COVID only started six months ago in the States. And I lost. You know, my job only six months ago. I'm like, wow, it's only been Half of the year, but who I am now, having let myself be really raw, vulnerable and ugly and grieving. And whatever the roller coaster was at any given day and feeling very isolated alone on many occasions and feeling very connected and supported on other days, I would not, I don't want to be who I was before, like I said, and I've, as a result of it made some pretty impactful changes on how I operate and how I spend my time and my energy and how I give back to the community and how I practice anti racism and all of these things, it just became so clear to me as a part of pain and discomfort, like that there was, there's many non negotiables that have surfaced, and before that, that like didn't exist, I was really just in this people pleasing way. And I was trying to be that superficial gratitude where it was like, I want to be agreeable, I want to be pleasing I want you to like me, I want you to feel heard and seen. And I still want people to feel heard and seen. But I also realize that I have a voice. And then I want to be heard and seen. And it probably didn't look very pretty in the first few months where I was demanding attention in a way of like, I need you, I need you to see me I'm hurting. But over that time, I recognize those that allowed me to be heard and seen. And I was like, man, maybe I don't actually have to be agreeable and to be gratuitous. But instead, I need to be rooted in like an awareness of myself and then I'm starting to just attract the work and the people and the love and the the daily schedule and all of that that is way more peace giving. And then I get to come through, like really grateful for what I've manifested. And it's been hard. And it's been work. And it still is I'm not suddenly this evolved person six months later, I'm in it and will always be in it. But it's been life giving more than not through loss.
David : Right. And I mean, I mostly have only seen that positive. But I think one of the things that is fascinating that you said a couple times is like how your family like your sisters have seen a new you.
Mary : Yeah, and how I mean, like to me, I think if I've getting this feedback that people are saying that I'm glowing. And it feels weird even say that, like it's like, you know, just say it out loud. And at first I was like rejecting that. And I'm like, What does that even mean? And then I realized that as a part of my dad dying, it really forced me to and COVID it forced me to confront sides of me that were darker, and shedding that light on the shadows and the darkness that it just gave room for it to be that light can come through. So now I'm feeling like the energy that I'm just starting to tap into it's not familiar, my like more consistent energy is probably more of what I was pre COVID and pre loss but I am getting such positive reinforcement and incentivized to be this version of myself that feels more like maybe who I've always been but was conditioned not to be that there is contagious, contagious nature around it that I'm attracting exactly what I'm hopeful for. And that's that to me makes me feel an exchange of gratitude truly because I feel grateful to be accepted as who I am and then that enhances the light. And then I also feel this gratefulness of those that are accepting of me and then it just becomes this really beautiful cyclical thing where even though there's so much that has been acknowledged that has been very very painful and intense, like overall the feeling is like a good one.
David : What I love in just even this gratitude conversation, it falls at the beginning of or the end of the fall kind of beginning of winter. Winter is a death you know, in terms of trees and but I tell people all the time like I don't know if I have a favorite season I love them all like, okay, no, I think fall is my favorite, but every other one is a close second, including winter and and winters can be harsh and cold and and all of that. But part of what I love about winter is through that death like it is death on display. But in death or in these bitter moments. There can be that clarity, and I'm really happy that it happens on a yearly basis that's like, my parents live in Florida and I, when they first moved down there all their friends were like, when are you going to move down there? I'm like, I'm not. Because there's no seasons there. Like, we have seasons. I'm like, yeah, hot, really hot. That's no fun. You know, but I love the cycle season so much. And I think it just mirrors the reflection of the seasons of life. And I think there's something very healthy about seeing all of it, the good, the bad, the ugly, the hard. The peaks, the valleys, and the seasons kind of enhance these rhythms.
Mary : So yeah, I mean, don't you don't you think that to experience gratitude with depth, you have to be able to have experience the polar opposite, right. And in order for it to feel way more, I don't know, satisfying. So maybe that's like, part of what I'm experiencing is that the satisfaction that I'm having comes from, that I experienced some of the lowest lows that I ever had. So therefore, the highs, even if my highs are like the same level that they were pre COVID, the lows are lower than they've ever been. So suddenly, like those, they feel way more dramatic of a peak than the value was in relationship prior. And I think that's what I'm really trying to say, I just realized is like, man, I think with these deeper values, like suddenly the peaks just happen to be higher. It's like if you go to Alaska, the sea you know, it's they call it sea to summit all the time, Alaska, from what I've heard, you know, it's 3000 feet to the mountain, but it's way different. When you're starting in Colorado, you're starting at a mountain at like 3000 to 5000 feet, and even though it could be a 14,000 foot, but you know, that's not the best example. But the difference, it's really about sort of the difference between the depth then the actual depth itself. And I'm finding that to be really interesting that I think that what's changed is that my Valley has been lower. And so therefore, the gratitude comes out of this higher place, because suddenly in relationship, it's way more impact.
David : Like, it makes me immediately think of like a significant other relationship. If you're gone for a weekend, you come back you embrace, versus someone at an airport who's welcoming their significant other from serving in Iraq for a year, the embrace is a lot longer. So there's a little bit of that. And even just like the seasonality thing, like you and I both are into natural foods, and following that system, like you can buy strawberries all year round. But if you only enjoy strawberries in June, when they come out, and when it's seasonal, they're way sweeter.
Mary : they're way sweeter. Yeah. So I think that we're just trying to say that there are so many layers of gratitude that gratitude is not just this idea of someone that's being complacent or overly optimistic. And while it can definitely present to that as that, on that more, if you were to put it on a spectrum on that more superficial side, which does not mean fake, then that's empowering you as a person or anyone as a person to you know, compartmentalize and be able to put things in a box for a moment so that you can access quick gratitude. And then there's this whole other side of it, that we're feeling like the collective is maybe feeling that there's been a lot of pain and a lot of heartache, and that by letting yourself lament, by letting yourself be in it in that muck. acknowledging it, and expediting how you move through it as a result, but there's this depth of gratitude that can come from the change of your Valley being a little bit deeper than it had been prior.
David : Yeah, this has been just such a great conversation, and I'll end with this. But I'm just incredibly grateful for you and our friendship and this work that we're doing together. It's pretty sweet.
Mary : Yeah. And we're grateful to you listeners for considering the conversations that we're having and knowing that they not might not always be comfortable because I don't think anything about the last year has been comfortable. But you know, the only way to get comfortable is to sort of start to be familiar and desensitize and have repetition there. So thank you for listening. And please if this resonates with you at all, share it with anyone that you know that you think would also feel the same permission to go there with us and check us out on any of our social media platforms. Instagram we’re the @thirdplacepod and then we're also online at thirdplacepodcast.com.
David : Yes, thank you everybody
Mary : Be well
