Ep 13 - Difficult Conversations Interview with Sonam Kline
The second of our two corresponding interviews following our episode, "Not IF But WHEN - Being Prepared for Difficult Conversations." Join us as we interview Sonam Kline, a professor of Cyber Psychology and the New Jersey Institute of Technology as we take a clinical look at how our body responds during conflict.
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TRANSCRIPT:
David : Well, everyone, I'm super excited to introduce you to Sonam Klein, I got to know Sonam through a coffee relationship. Her and her husband, Dan started the company called wondercup. And just like coffee connects us all, we got to connect through coffee and unpack what that looks like and being this global beverage and so many similarities in terms of passion of bringing people together through conversation and using coffee as this great vehicle. So that's where I got to meet you and just super excited to bring you into this space, which it's almost like the third place podcast has become a digital coffee shop where we can unpack this, lots of really great conversations. But specifically, you also are a professor in psychology. And I would love for you to just tell us a little about that. Because for this episode, what we wanted to talk through is more of this dialogue, we're always talking about how to have better conversations, can we have harder conversations, and in our current climate around the world with COVID, and politics, and social media, and clearly understanding and learning, as we have more and more social media elements in our life, like that is not really a great platform to have deep dialogue, someone posts something, then there's a comment, and then it's like, you know what, I'm just gonna abandon all comments, or whatever, there's all these responses. So because you teach psychology, that's really why we wanted to bring you into this topic just to help us unpack and what do we do when we see someone post something that's crazy, that just makes us I don't know, get so angry on the inside. And I want to be too. So welcome. super happy to have you with us.
Sonam : Thanks, David. And Mary, I'm super happy to be here, really excited to talk about this topic. This topic is super important. It was important to me before COVID. But I feel especially now with the rise in mental health issues and the uncertainty people feel around the pandemic, it's becoming really more relevant than ever. Emotions are heightened people are being given the time and opportunity to actually face and confront their feelings head on. And with this extra time for reflection, there's a lot that can come up. And if it's not addressed in a healthy way people can start to really see themselves headed toward a downward spiral. So as a psychology professor, it's super important to me to maintain a sense of self awareness, and also to help my students navigate through this time by acknowledging everything that comes up for them as well. So we kind of see the importance of clear and healthy communication more than ever at this time.
Mary : Yeah, and I mean, I love that you say that, because the impact of covid is so much greater than, you know, the very clear impact of loss and sickness and beyond, which is heartbreaking. But I even you know, my husband and I were talking yesterday about the the sort of like second layer of impact, which is that mental health impact, and then even those that are maybe not going to seek help, because of COVID to like there's this there's like, it's so much greater than just the the deaths that we've been experiencing and in sickness and so I appreciate you bringing in the depth of really the impact of this and how having communication and grace right now in this time is like so vital. Yeah, so we started this topic with, you know, we say not if, but when, because we feel like the most important thing that we can do is be prepared for difficult conversations, because difficult conversations are one of the most common themes. I think, right now in this time, not just speaking of COVID. But there's so many things that our world is textured with right now. And we really want to understand, like, we understand why this topic is important to you, but wondering, what happens to someone when they feel like they're in a threatened state?
Sonam : Yeah, definitely. Um, so if we kind of like look at the big picture, human beings by nature don't like confrontation. So when you look at evolutionary psychology, it's clear to see that one of the main principles thats helped us to survive as a species is really cooperation. So it makes sense that when it comes to having difficult conversations it makes us uncomfortable, and it's almost a visceral gut reaction, so when we look at how our mind works, it's broken down into kind of like two ways of processing we have a two track mind, there's our conscious rational thought, that tends to be our deliberate high road, and that's where we have our more reflective and rational Thinking so we can call it our rational, cool brain. And this thinking takes place in the prefrontal cortex. But what many people don't realize or easily forget is that it's our unconscious mind or subconscious, if you prefer to call it that that's actually 30,000 times more powerful than our conscious rational thought. And this part of our mind is the automatic way of thinking, which tends to be entirely intuitive. So we can call this our emotional, hot brain. And this is where our feelings of fear, desire, anger, the urge to respond to something impulsively, come up. And this part of our mind often leads people to bypass the self regulatory controls, and self standards we have in place just when we need them most. And this is where the fight or flight response comes from. So when we look at the body's fight or flight response, this comes from the area of our brain called the amygdala, which is located in our temporal lobes. And it's part of the limbic system, which is our bazel primitive brain that's been around as long as human beings have been in existence. And basically, these tiny almond shaped neurological structures show primary role in processing of memory decision making, and our emotional responses, like fear, anxiety, and aggression. And this part is critical and responding to danger signals, like you mentioned, Mary, preparing our body biologically to either fight or flee. But what happens when this fight or flight response is triggered by a stressful situation is that we get into the situation where we start to feel flustered, and we have a physiological response. So when the amygdala is activated, it causes our body to release stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline. And then the cortisol increases our heart rate and blood pressure. And so we can feel our heart quit heart rate, Quicken, maybe we start to sweat a little we can feel our muscles tense up, our bodies retract, our pupils widen. And so the psychological feelings associated with these body changes or feelings, like it makes my heart race or I'm feeling choked up with rage or ready to vomit. And this all happens in such a short amount of time, that we're most often not even always consciously aware that this is occurring. And the real trouble begins when this starts to become a chronic thing. So when we find ourselves in situations that need to be resolved, but we hold on to the stress and tension versus engaging in healthy dialogue, we can start to develop chronic stress around these issue issues, which becomes a lot more problematic than just in the short term. So we really have to teach ourselves how to address things kind of as they come up, rather than holding on to this because it's, it has some serious health issues around this response. So yeah
David : yeah, that's super fascinating. I one of the questions that was coming up for me right when you started talking was, why is it that we avoid conflict like that was feeling something new to me. Like, I just assumed that that was a new question asked, I didn't think about it in the way of, we always avoid conflict, or like just that dualistic thinking, I knew evolutionary wise, why we would want to do that, it's a survival mechanism. But I didn't think that that would translate to just this idea of, well, we don't inherently like to have conflict period.
Mary : I was baffled by the 30,000 times stronger. I mean, I'm sitting here thinking of so many times that I am in that state. And what happens for me, usually is like, I am not able to be fact based and hearing that you lose memory, and you know, all of these, like rational thinking, it makes so much sense because I feel like when I'm trying to speak my opinion, it's almost like I lose my opinion. And instead of being able to articulate it, it's like I go blank, even though I was so clear, maybe even just seconds prior.
Sonam : Yeah, exactly. And that's your subconscious coming in, and your emotional, reactive side. Emotions are I mean, they can be a really fun thing to look at, because they do cause us to kind of, you know, the rational thought goes out the window, sometimes when our, our body and our intuition kind of takes over. And we all experience emotions, but there's something that simply aren't talked about enough. And what happens in a lot of cases is that we try to push down our emotions through active suppression and anyone who does this knows that trying to push something under the rug or not, or not bringing it to our attention actually doesn't resolve anything. And this is one of the reasons Another interesting fact is that statistically, women get over breakups more quickly than men because they talk about it, they tell their best friend, they tell their mom, their neighbor, their hairdresser, their dog. And through talking about it, they actually heal more quickly on average than men who most often keep their feelings suppressed in a lot of cases. So that's why it's important to kind of let it in and, and sit with what you're feeling and acknowledge it so that you can start to make more informed and rational decisions.
Mary : Yeah, we actually even talked about this with the dear white woman hosts, and we were talking about how there are different tools of processing and that we feel like women have more practice in, you know, generationally, the processing out loud, and that that gives them a tool to probably I would imagine that's directly related to emotional intelligence, is there? Is there some conversation or any sort of backup that you can support to that opinion? Um,
Sonam : so yeah, I do think that women tend to be, on average, a little bit more score a little higher on EQ or emotional intelligence than men. But I wonder if that's changing now. I'd be interested to dive into some of the more recent work on that. Yeah.
Mary : So I also have a personal question, before we go to the next thing that I was thinking about. So two years ago, I suffered a traumatic brain injury. And there's been a visceral change for me, especially in like, heightened conversations, that I noticed that like I, you know, just touched on that I have this, I sort of lose memory, or I'm not, I'm not able to come from the factor of in place, like the emotional driven places very strong. Do you know any correlation between how that may have affected my ability to respond to stress situations?
Sonam : Yes, so it really, really comes down to what exactly happened in your brain injury and which parts of your brain were affected, because that can definitely play a role in whether your responses are coming more from an emotional place or more from you know, if your prefrontal cortex was more affected than that's where your rational thought is mostly coming from and your higher level decision making. But if it was a different part of your brain, and you know, the limbic part of your brain, then that could definitely affect your emotional responses. So do you know any specific information about your brain injury?
Mary : Yeah, so I hit my head on the front in a mountain biking accident. Um, but the brain bleed actually happened in my back left quadrant is like the best way I could say, because of the rattling it hit from the forward to the back. And so that's where I ended up getting the brain bleed.
Sonam : Okay, but you hit headed on the front. Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Because front would be, like I said, your prefrontal cortex, and you said that you're, when you're making decisions, you tend to feel like they're coming more from an emotional place?
Mary : Totally. But I'm also a Libra. So I have a hard time making decisions. So it's not all TBI related. It's the people pleaser in me that I say I'm a diagnose people pleaser. Um, yeah. So I'm wondering, what are some things that we can do that help us you know, get out of that emotional, hot brain.
Sonam : So there, there are a few different things that we can do. First of all, we can separate facts from the story that we're telling ourselves. So when it comes to making decisions, a lot of times we get wrapped up in the stories around things, and that's very involved in the emotional side. So when we're preparing to have a difficult conversation, we need to ask ourselves, what are the facts and once we have that we can make more rational decisions than when we get wrapped up in the stories we build around what's going on. So in any fight, it's the story that makes us suffer, we can deal with facts as human beings, facts never break people up. We can't always deal with the stories that we make up about what happened right so couples can overcome infidelity or other forms of betrayal by looking just at the facts, right. So fact he cheated. But what's the story? I'm telling myself, right? He doesn't love me or he loves her. Now there's the bigger issue. So facts are fair stories cause suffering. Another thing that we can do that's kind of in line with this is cognitive reframing. So this is where we look at a stressful situation differently. So you can view a poor grade as an opportunity to learn how to study more effectively, or you can view a difficult conversation with your boss as an opportunity to enhance your communication skills and confidence. So kind of things like that. And then another tool is self distancing. So this is basically an approach where you focus on your feelings and what's happening from the perspective of a detached observer. So you're kind of viewing yourself as a third person outside of the situation. And once you detach yourself from the situation, it becomes a lot easier to see things from a rational and cool down perspective, right. So it's easier to give somebody else advice, who's going through something, because you're not emotionally attached to it. So if you can do that with yourself and kind of step outside of yourself, you can cool down and kind of see things from a different perspective. Other good ways are, you know, if you're, if you're feeling hot headed, or you're feeling reactive, taking some time to cool down first is always recommended. So if you're writing an email, and you're feeling all fired up, give yourself at least 45 minutes to regain some kind of composure, if you're feeling that heightened stress response. And you can also distract yourself with any activities that you enjoy doing, you know, doing a crossword puzzle, or reading a book or going on a walk, and listening to some calming music. So there are definitely tools out there, in terms of what we can do to bring ourselves into that rational, calm, composed way of thinking versus letting our emotions get the best of us.
David : Yeah, that's really cool. what kind of tool is available? Like, if you are in that moment, and I don't know, you're like in a public scenario, and someone does say something completely inappropriate racially, or they make a scene because they don't want to wear a mask, and you can't tell me to wear a mask? Is there a tool or a practice that you can kind of put in place now. So you're prepared for that kind of situation?
Sonam : Yeah, so one of one of the things that are our we have a life coach who mentors us, and one of the things that she's taught us is like, if you don't, if you don't come up to their level, and you keep yourself at just like a lower level in terms of your calmness and your composure, then they'll have to come down to match you. So like, if you're getting into an argument or confrontation, unless both sides are elevated, it's not going to go anywhere. And so when I kind of like butt heads, sometimes with my mom on different issues, the only reason we argue is because she's coming from a reactive place, and then I bring myself up to that same energy. But if I stay calm and composed, eventually she's just gonna burn herself out if she's continuing to like, yell and be angry, right? because nobody's coming up there to meet that energy level. So it's like if somebody is kind of an elevated state of reactivity, but you keep yourself in a calmer, as our life coach likes to say, more beautiful state, then it's going to defuse the tension, right? And no conflict or fighting is going to result. Basically,
Mary : I love that you brought it to the energetic level, because that's something that I really like to speak about. And I have experienced so viscerally. But to me, it's like, the energy exchange is something that we don't talk about very often. And the way that energy impacts what's happening biologically, I think, is really potent. But I think of it in a way of like, it's a way of finding homeostasis that like if someone is coming from a grounded place on someone else's elevated, like, it's just natural that our response even in that crowded place, we'll probably come up a little bit, and the one in the elevated space will probably come down a little bit. And it's almost like how can we find our new homeostasis together, but with that also being said, Sometimes I feel like that grounded space can come from like a egotistical perspective, where it's like, oh, I'm the calm one, like you're like, it can actually charge the heightened space sometimes where you're like, you're losing it, you're crazy. You're like, way too much. And I'm like, so with it right now. And I feel like that can be counterproductive on occasion. And I don't know the difference between each of those scenarios, but I do know that an energy exchange is happening regardless. And most typically, you're going to help someone ground and bring them down a little bit. Because just like what you said, like the fires gonna run out, and I love that, that image of that, but sometimes it almost feels like it can just do the opposite.
Sonam : Right? Yeah. And I see where you're coming from about it being like, one person could interpret that the other person maybe is coming off as they're better than them. But I think we have to work to consciously separate our ego from what's going on and just choose to remain in a state that is more you know, it's really a maturity thing. It's like an enlightened, mature. way of being when you can, you know, when everything is being thrown at you that you can choose to remain in a beautiful state. And that's one of the rarest and best qualities of a leader too, right? not meeting the negative reactivity that is kind of happening around you. And being in that reactive state. It's what our inner child does it blames it criticizes it has a mini tantrum gets angry and leaves, right. So it takes a lot of conscious effort to kind of tell ourselves, okay, that's the way I could be in the direction I could go in. Or I can choose to kind of make this conscious and deliberate effort to maintain composure as difficult as it is. And just understand that, you know, everybody's entitled to their own their own beliefs and their own thoughts. And when somebody is saying something that you don't agree with, it's not necessarily about changing their opinion and telling them, you're right, and they're wrong. It's really just about understanding, okay, well, everybody is entitled to their different worldviews, and everybody has a different perspective, and we can learn to coexist without trying to change people,
Mary : the example you gave with your mom, I think of like, okay, so there's clearly some rapport between the two of you, she birthed you. So clearly, like the energy exchange, like you're able to go through a heightened conversation or a difficult conversation and come to some resolve. Do you have any examples or experiences of when there was like, zero relationship between the two, or between someone that you were conversing with? And how you were able to how it either went really well or not?
Sonam : Mm hmm. Um, yeah, you know, I think I think the current political landscape is a great example here. I feel that not only like our nation is becoming increasingly divided over conflicting political views. You know, we're discontinuing friendships with people, because of different political views. It's really coming down to like, the familial and friendship level, even in not seeing eye to eye on various issues. And so I've definitely gotten into disagreements with friends and acquaintances, acquaintances here from a political standpoint, and I think we kind of, we hit a standstill in a lot of cases, right? Because it's like, okay, they're not seeing where I'm coming from, I'm not seeing where they're coming from. And we're bringing our different perspectives to the table here. And they're just no matter what information we give each other, what supporting arguments we give each other, we're just not seeing eye to eye here. And I think that, you know, it's okay, that that happens sometimes. And it's kind of inevitable that that's going to happen, because like I was saying before, you can't get everybody to agree with you and see your perspective. You know, there's the saying, There's three sides to every story, his side, her side, and the truth. And so it's once you realize that everything is influenced by our subjective perception of what's going on, and that everybody has their own truth. You can kind of accept that, you know, you're right, in your own way. And that person is right in their own way. And everything is coming from your own life experiences and what you've learned. And just because you don't agree with somebody doesn't mean, you have to convince them that your way of thinking is the correct way. You know, if I try to convince every person who has different political beliefs than me that the way I'm thinking is right, in the way they are thinking is wrong. It's just it's, I'm never gonna get anywhere. And so, yeah, I think that you can educate people of the facts, and you can express where you're coming from. But at the end of the day, that's still just your worldview.
David : Yeah, I mean, that's definitely the heart behind the third place podcast is, here's my perspective, here's your perspective. And can we meet in the middle? Right, I still find myself though. I mean, when you said, you know, friendships are ending, I'm like, I was just having a conversation with my wife, Beth yesterday, there's someone that I know, I know, and respect him and have known him for a long time. And I know where he would stand politically before we all got in this really charged date over the last several years. But it is to the point where I'm like, I don't know if I respect him very much anymore. Because that, like the things that I see online, the things I see posted to me seemed very irrational, and also not very conversational. And I'm just like, I don't even I have so much kind of angst and negative energy around the whole thing anyway. And I feel like as a host of the third place podcast in some ways, I'm an expert of bringing people in, and I still I'm really struggling with, I don't know what to do with this relationship.
Mary : So true. Like I've had a number of moments since we started this podcast, David where people are like, well Aren't you supposed to be able to understand the third place and isn't the third place about this and that and I'm admittedly, you know, working on it minute by minute too, especially as conversations get more charged and more political and more emotional and all of that. So I think that part of what we're trying to achieve in this is not perfection around the gray space, but more just like curiosity around it and dipping a toe in it, and like always revisiting it and coming back to it in whatever way that may be. So that you can find compassion and empathy, and hopefully start to crave it and it becomes easier.
David : There's definitely this like learning process, like we were talking about men and women processing differently, either. I feel like there's just like practice like, like, okay, conflict, something that we can avoid. But if we learn better tools, it's doing it a little bit better, which feels good, then doing a little bit better the next time, which feels good. And then over time, it's this one thing I'm right now I'm in the state of the phrase, let's agree to disagree just really rubs me the wrong way. What tools can we be working towards where it feels a little bit better? Or a little bit better each time? Or is that something that a road that we should even go down?
Sonam : Yeah, no, I, I see where you're coming from about that phrase rubbing you the wrong way. Because we want at the end of the day, everybody wants to feel heard and wants to feel understood. And I think that's a big part of where what it comes down to here is that we're as a society, having a more difficult time now listening to people actively listening. And like you mentioned before being empathetic. And I think if we're able to put ourselves in somebody else's shoes and see things from their perspective, at least at the very least, they can feel heard and validated. And, again, you don't have to necessarily agree with somebody in order to accept them in order to make them feel understood, and vice versa. So you can see the different perspectives and kind of get a feel for the whole picture without actually saying like, explicitly saying, okay, I agree with you entirely.
Mary : I think something though, also important that we want to touch on is like, there is some value to having boundaries. And, you know, there's, like, I feel like the I agree to disagree, or let's agree to disagree statement is almost like a way of trying to set a boundary, maybe it's not the best, most productive way. But I see that the intention behind it is like, okay, I've hit my point where I feel like I can't come across anymore. Or maybe it's like, you know, I've given all the empathy I could, and maybe there is a point where the boundary needs to be set. And I'm just wondering, like, how do we identify or how have you identified times in the past where you feel like a boundary can also be a healthy thing, because I don't want us inviting people into this space to like, cause, um, trauma or traumatic situations or other things that end up doing sort of the counterproductive result, while still meeting each other's edge and finding that uncomfortable zone and being empathetic and listening and being and hearing people like, what would you suggest when it comes to when to know when to set a boundary? And have you experienced that yourself?
Sonam : Yeah, I mean, setting, I completely agree with you setting boundaries is one of the most important things that we can do. And one of the things that it comes down to is really, we have to break invisible, unhealthy, invisible loyalties that we have, right. So if you have somebody in your life, who you're not seeing eye to eye with, and you have different views, you have to ask yourself, how important is that relationship to you first? And then what kind of boundaries Can you set in place to maintain that relationship? So that you know, it's not just turning into an arguing match every time you have a conversation with the person. One of the things that my family does is so that we can kind of set out healthy boundaries and also see where the other person is coming from is we have these check ins, where we basically have these family meetings and we go around in a circle. And we each talk about you know, we have floor time where we talk about what's going on in our lives. What are we excited about? What are we stressed about? What are things we want to communicate to the family about how we're feeling, and it really becomes a safe space so nobody can interrupt you while you're talking. You have an unlimited amount of time to kind of talk about what's going on. And then once we've heard everyone out, we have this group discussion on how to address and resolve the issues we're facing. saying, what kind of game plan? Can we set up moving forward? And how do we hold each other accountable? And that's an important piece too, when it comes to setting boundaries about things that are important to you is also, how do you hold each other accountable in actually respecting those boundaries moving forward. And this is something I do in my marriage on a more frequent basis, we have these check ins. And I think it's really important to have this this dialogue and keep it open and evolving to ensure that everyone is growing and feels heard and understood, and you're listening to the other person. But yeah, I mean, boundaries are extremely important. And I think that if you feel that the relationship is getting to a place where there's any kind of underlying resentment, or unresolved issues, or anything you're feeling, it's really important to bring it up, speak honestly, and candidly with the other person, especially if the relationship isn't important to you and say, Look, I don't want to I don't want to lose this relationship, or I don't want our friendship to be impacted by our difference in views. How can we set up a strategy moving forward so that, you know, we're not talking about politics, every time we see each other, whatever the issue is, and just kind of I mean, it is agree to disagree. That is kind of what it is. But just agree to disagree and and for the sake of our relationship? So
David : yeah, I'm so glad you said that. And, boy, what a great practice. I'm curious to know how often that you do that? Is it intentional, or is it organic? Once a month, but the relationship I was just talking about, that was kind of the conclusion is like, okay, I can engage with this person online, I can't even a phone call is not going to do it. Like, if I really care about this relationship, what it feels like to me is first, essentially create that safe place. What does meaning for coffee look like? And even beginning the conversation, I know that I'm not going to influence you, I know that you're not going to influence me, but you are someone that I care about. And it's like, how do you almost like, help me be a better version of the person that you disagree with? Like, how can I disagree with you in a healthy way? Because I want to be, I still want to create that safety with you. can healthy conflict, like this is all based on online experiences where this particular relationship, can healthy conflict even happen online?
Sonam : Um, I think it can, it can happen online, but I think it's more so or it's more impactful when it transfers from online to offline. Based on I mean, at least the research that I've seen
Mary : in my the only one that has like a local town, Facebook page, that happens to be like the most dramatic. So like, I remember when I joined my town's Facebook page, and I had heard some while I was running a grocery store, in like a neighboring town. And part of becoming a new small business was to join that so that we could feel those, you know, it was like a customer service tool. But it ended up being that it was like a drama dump, like it was always probably, I felt like more so negative than positive and I think that that's just like, you know, human nature when it comes to customer service and feedback in general. But I now joined the town that I live in, and it is the same exact thing that I almost get off of it constantly. Because it's just feels like it brings out the worst in people. And there's something I'm curious because I know that you've done and I'd love to hear about you know your thesis because I know that you did something really specific to this topic. But also there's just this like, we're trying to create a sense of safety, but something about doing things on online or in social media creates a sense of personal safety that allows you to maybe be more raw, probably not with the most tact but I feel like there is a lot of rawness that can come with a lot of hurt as a result. What was your thesis about? And did it touch on any of that and and sort of what helps people get to that place that I feel like is doing more harm than good?
Sonam : Yeah, so um, my thesis kind of scratches the surface there. But the subject that I'm teaching cyber psychology, we dig in deeper, so I can definitely explain a little bit of the research on this. So my thesis was about how second screen devices affect feelings of social connections. So second screen devices, basically like you're watching TV, but you're also on your phone or your laptop or your tablet, and we conducted studies around the presidential debates. And what we found or I would say the most interesting finding was an unintended finding on open mindedness. So we did find that second screen usage was related to feeling more connected to other people, but only if you were physically alone. So when you were with other people, it actually had the opposite effect where it was just track, distracting from the conversations that you could be having from the people that you were physically with. But the dimension on open mindedness that we found was that people who use second screen devices and specifically social media, were less open to differing viewpoints than their own. And the theory that this taps into his human confirmation bias, right, so we're likely to accept facts that reinforce our information that really reaffirms our own worldviews when we see online, and specifically social media platforms is what's called echo chambers and filter bubbles. So because of the algorithms on Facebook, and on Instagram, we're more likely to see content that we're more likely to engage with, and that content tends to reflect our own ideologies. And so what we see is that people actually think that their own worldviews are a lot more widespread than they actually are. So a lot of my friends, you know, when Trump became president, it was like, I don't understand everybody on my newsfeed, or all the information that I saw was, you know, there was no sign of that happening. And that's because you're seeing the stuff that you're most likely to be engaged with, until like, and so we think that our views are a lot more prevalent than they actually are. And so that was what my thesis touched on. And then in terms of what you were saying about feeling more, like courageous, almost online or feeling like you can say, you know, more audacious things than you, then you wouldn't, when you're in an offline setting is absolutely true. And it comes down to kind of like the anonymity factor. Even if you're not anonymous online, people have a lot, a much easier time saying things that are more polarized when they're online. And a lot of it comes down to like, there isn't that real time feedback. So you don't have like the nonverbal cues, you don't really have as much of a risk of people being like, immediately judging you, or immediately responding to you that you have with face to face interactions. And so it becomes a lot easier, it's kind of like the screen is almost like a mask or like a shield that protects you against that real time feedback. So it does become easier for people to say more polarizing or more extreme things online. And then if you add anonymity and they're going under a different name, then that becomes even more of a profound effect.
Mary : I feel like every household listener right now is saying, like, they feel so validated, because I think my husband, if you, you know, when he listens, he's gonna be like, I'm the second screen user. For sure. I attribute that to the fact that I'm the youngest of five. And like, I've told my husband, that there's something that I like about feeling like there are people in the room when I'm alone. But then when I keep that habit, when my husband and my son are home from work or daycare, it does the total opposite effect where I sort of isolated myself and have no have like put a shield for connection when what I'm trying to do is create a sense of like connection and community when I'm alone and secluded, which is like, you know, I'm sure so many people are going through a massive shift, having worked remote prior. And then now it being okay, I'm in like, my I don't have a coworking space. I'm by myself, like how do I create a sense of connection or community. And I think screens are sort of filling that void, maybe in not very satisfying way, but in a band aid approach,
Sonam : right. And one of the things we really have to learn now that people are working remotely is how to compartmentalize because one of the common misconceptions we have as human beings is that we think that we're able to multitask, but our brains literally are incapable of multitasking. So your brain can't focus on more than one task at a time. So what happens if you're watching TV and you're on your laptop and you're on your phone, whatever it is, your brain is just moving very quickly between each task. So your attention can only be focused on one thing at a time, but it's just moving so quickly that you think you're simultaneously doing more than one thing. And it's really bad for the human attention span and also for relationships, right? So if your husband or your kid or whoever is trying to talk to you and you're on your phone, you're really not able to allocate your full attention to what they're saying.
Mary : Even if you're doing like mindless tasks, what people say you No, I would say that I'm like, Oh, well, I'm just doing data entry. While whatever is that that still is completely, you still can only focus on one thing?
Sonam : Yeah, your brain just moves so rapidly from each thing. So it's basically going back and forth very quickly. But it's not actually focusing on both things simultaneously.
Mary : I thought I was so cool. I feel like so many women are always like, I can multitask, right? I mean, that's something that we always say, like, I can multitask. I can do many things at once. And, like, maybe it's just we're just lying to ourselves. We're just exhausting our brain.
David : Well, I know that you teach college students and one of the things that, when I've had the opportunity to do something, I always leave that moment very hopeful for the future. What is the thing that you see from students and kind of your perspective? In that, that space? What is the thing that gives you hope around conflict? And where we're going?
Sonam : Hmm, that's actually a really good question. Um, it's difficult to say, because I don't really have a comparison point, since I've only been teaching for the past, like, three years, so I can talk about what's hopeful about the future generation, I guess, they seem to be very proactive. They reach out when they're having issues. I mean, I've been kind of lucky to have such amazing students, I feel like they're very hands on, they're very engaged with the material there. I've rarely had a student that I really need to handhold. I feel like a lot of college students today tend to be self sufficient. And they also have big ideas, which is nice, you know, I'm in the process of grading their, their research papers right now, their first paper. And basically, they had to choose any topic in cyber psychology and write a paper on it. And a lot of them are talking about, you know, the advancements in VR and in AI and kind of like, they had these revolutionary ideas, and I just makes me feel comfort in knowing that we have a lot of bright and capable students that are going to be really changing the world one day. So yeah, very, very optimistic about where they're going.
Mary : That's really refreshing to hear. And also, it's just fascinating to me with each generation, like, what the new language is, in, like, what's coming to the surface, because all of that feels, you know, completely foreign to me and to think about so many things that from generation to generation as foreign becomes like a new understanding a new expertise, and like such a short amount of time, I feel like the the progress that we're making is so dramatic, but I just hope that it can be turned towards like the global health and of you know, even just the health of the planet, you know, emotionally and like nature.
Sonam : Yeah, exactly. And I'm teaching at NJIT. Now. So a lot of my students are like, software engineers, and they know so much about technology, that it's really inspiring, because they're really amazing with technology. And I'm like, Okay, this is a good sign that things are gonna be moving in the right direction.
David : Well, one, I think we've just scratched the surface on several different things I want to go deeper with. So I would love to have you back on and ask additional questions down the future. But to you in the meantime, like, Is there a place that people can find more of your work, though? Where can people connect with you?
Sonam : I'm working on putting together a website actually about cyber psychology and about, like, the different research that I'm involved with. So hopefully, I'll have more information on that next time. But for now, you know, social media platforms are fine. And if anybody wants to email me, sk95@njit.edu would be great.
Mary : I wrote David a text. So I was clearly paying attention to the text and not the podcast interview for a moment because I can't multitask. While we were talking, I just said like I think you were absolutely brilliant. And thank you so much for coming on. Because everything that you said I have a degree in psychology and undergrad. And I feel like I learned more in the last 30 minutes than I was anticipating. So thank you so much. And I can I look forward to the next conversation we have with you because I know there will be many more.
Sonam : Awesome. Well, thank you guys for having me join in this conversation. It's these are topics that I love to talk about. And again, like I mentioned, I love what you bet what you're doing with the third place and I think it's really important to have these conversations so I'm happy to be a part of this anytime.
Mary : Thank you. Be well
Sonam : thanks you too.
