Ep 12 - Difficult Conversations Interview with Sara and Misasha from Dear White Women
The first of two corresponding interviews following our episode, "Not IF But WHEN - Being Prepared for Difficult Conversations." We are honored to have Sara and Misasha from the Dear White Women podcast join us as we unpack difficult conversations with empathy and compassion.
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TRANSCRIPT:
David : Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to the third place podcast. I'm excited to have you guys join us today. This is the first of two interviews that we have that coincide with our episode not if but when? How to have difficult conversations, because it's not if they happen, but it is truly when they happen. And how do we go a little bit deeper in a respectful way with people that we maybe disagree with? Or have conflict with? This is such a big topic. And really so much of the heart of the third place podcasts, how do we have better dialogue? How do we empower each other to go deeper with, with people and in our relationships, and really have those difficult conversations. So for this specific episode, we wanted to have two interviews that coincide. So this is the first of two. Today, we are truly honored to interview two of the most inspiring women, Sara and Misasha, who co-host a podcast called dear white women. You'll hear just the brilliance in our conversation, we had so much fun interviewing them. And we learned so much, and I'm sure that you're going to learn just so much as well. So, without further ado, Sara and Misasha.
Mary : Well, welcome to the third place podcast. David and I could not be more excited because we have two guests that we have found from previous experience, but also a community that is near and dear to my heart, which is the Hey, Mama community. And I want to introduce me, Misasha and Sara, of the dear white women podcast and we are going to dive into the conversation that is probably one of the most important to us in this time and something that they touch on and probably every episode that you ever do, I would imagine. So welcome you too.
Sara & Misasha : Thanks so much for having us.
Mary : I would love to start with like, Can you can you both just give us you know, our listeners a little bit of a background of your podcast and what you do?
Sara : Sure, I mean, I think our podcast is basically aiming to help people ease into uncomfortable conversations about race and racism and how to be more anti racist. Misasha can touch on the personal side of why this is important to us. But both of us are half white, half Japanese daughter of at least one Japanese immigrant parent, and we met like 20 something years ago, we've only lived in the same city during college, and then for one year after that, but we have remained that closest of friends through the decades and throughout the world, really. So I am really psyched that we've been able to create something that is really important to us personally. And I think really makes a big difference for the lives of others and also for you know, hopefully building a better future for our kiddos.
Misasha : Right, and I think, you know, Sara said that you gave the background of the podcast and really came from a very personal place. Because if you're familiar with the podcast, you know that not only are we biracial, but we also have multiracial children. And in getting married and having kids, our conversations changed, because you know, we've known each other for 20 something years. So our college conversations, more work in conversations morphed into, you know, life and parenting conversations. And we realized that our fears for our children, while we all have fears and hopes and dreams for kids, they're not the same. And that in America largely depends on in some ways, what race is your child? or How is your child seen? And so, you know, my largest fears are one well, okay before 2020 of my largest fear was that my husband who's black, or my children who are half black quarter, Japanese quarter white would walk out of our house and not come back, simply because of the color of their skin. And you know, as a parent, you want to do everything you can to protect your children. And this is something I could not protect them from. And I could not explain to them that kids who did not look like them would be given the benefit of the doubt in scenarios and they will never be given that benefit of the doubt. And that is heartbreaking as a parent. And but you know, as Sara and I started having these conversations, we realized that these weren't conversations that everyone was having. So we wanted to take those conversations, we wanted to move them to a public space and get really uncomfortable because these are uncomfortable things and uncomfortable issues. And so if we can model that for other people, we feel like maybe we can get those conversations started. In homes just like ours.
David : Yeah, that's amazing. And that's what really our goal is with this podcast for us is we need to figure out how to have better conversations. We talked about the third place being this, it's not this black perspective, or this white perspective, but this messy, gray middle, and they're gonna be uncomfortable. And I mean, I grew up thinking that politics and religion were topics that you didn't want to talk about that they were inappropriate, I'm starting to really think that those are where the practice hard conversations are, because the harder ones, like racism, like gender gap are the ones that we want to embrace. And we just don't know how to do it.
Mary : Yeah, it's interesting, because in my raising, I was in a very bizarre family where there were seven of us and the youngest of five. And we had family meetings where we talked about conflict every single week. So I'm like on the very polar opposite. I joked on one of our last episodes with David, I was like, it sounds a little culty it was a little cold feeling. Um, but for the most part, like what what's cool about the process of the third place, and what i think that you know, your podcast and the intention behind our podcast is that it's providing me more and more tact around it. Yeah, maybe I'm desensitized to these conversations. But to have the tactic to have the compassion come through when there's so much disparity right now is really one of the one of my greatest desires to come out of this podcast.
Sara : I love that because, you know, if you grew up having difficult conversations and conflict resolution conversations with your family, you understood that that starts from a place of love, like you, even if you didn't like your siblings at that moment, You sure do love them at the bottom of you know, at the end of the day. And so it's like you grew up in this environment where you realize that just because you have different viewpoints, or something went wrong, you still see them as human. And I think that is the most difficult thing, the thing that whether you know, we can blame it on tech, we can blame it on our phones, we can blame it on public and blame it on any other thing. But we all have a choice to see the humanity in somebody else when we're having these conversations. And right now, largely, the media is dehumanizing us, we are not reaching for that as the beginning of this. And I think, you know, that is one of the most important things when you're heading into a difficult conversation is like Remember, the other person is still a person.
Mary : Yeah, so I mean, perfect, perfect segue into the conversation that we want to have with you guys. So you know, the title of this is not if but when and how to like be prepared for difficult conversations, difficult situations, challenging exchanges. And you know, we're seeing out there in media, there's tons of things being blown up at David and I’s background is in coffee and tea and the natural foods industry. So we've seen a ton of things happening in the coffee shop where, you know, little exchanges blow up into something that becomes viral, and the media leans into the disparity becoming this very hateful thing. And, you know, I am wondering, you know, why a topic like this, when there's these minor changes happening that can blow up so easily is important to the two of you, and, and how it relates to the work that the two of you do.
Misasha : I think that there is like, when we talk about race and racism, you know, it's so charged. And I think that people automatically get defensive first. And so I think, because it's seen, not in a historical context, not in a moving forward context, but in a direct attack on who you are, and maybe things you've never thought about. And not to say that, you know, everyone is raised in a system. And in the United States, we have a clear system of how we were raised. And there's a dominant narrative, and that is, you know, a white male cisgender narrative, and that flows through all of what we learn. So sometimes when we have these conversations, it challenges the assumptions and the core of what you know, you believe and, you know, if you're like, David, and it was partially at times in my family, too, we didn't talk about politics or religion in the same way. And so those were taboo subjects. And now you're suddenly being asked to think on the spot about something maybe you've never thought about in our immediate human reaction is to get defensive, shut down. And it's hard to fight through those and to listen, and to think like, Where can I see this person? Where's that humanity that we were just talking about? How can I relate? And I think that when that defensiveness kicks in, it automatically escalates, right? Because you're shut down. You're not listening. And I know I do this too, and I'm an attorney. So I see it from my clients, right. You shut down, you're trying to protect yourself. But in protecting yourself, you're not hearing the other person. So I think that's how it can so quickly escalate.
Mary : So it's like, it's the perceived threat, right? It's like I'm being threatened, what I know what my experience of life, what my truths are, are completely being threatened. And so, you know, being an attorney, do you have any, you know, perfect stories or a story that comes to mind when thinking about this topic?
Misasha : I mean, so I'm a litigator. So people are in conflict when they come and talk to you. And so literally everything. Yes. And I personally don't like conflict. And so the meshing the two is always interesting, but I think clients often don't understand what's being asked of them. And I think that's what happens in those conversations, the coffee shop conversations, you don't understand really what the other person is trying to ask or say. And I think it's really easy to assume, right? You assume a lot of things. And clients will get a letter from, you know, the company that there is sort of challenging something that they're doing, and they immediately go to like DEFCON nine, and they're like, I can't believe they're challenging the core of who I am. And part of my role is to sort of talk them down from that and say, like, No, well, if you read this, if you really read the words that they're saying, or you're listening to the voicemail that they left, they're not saying this. They're like five steps below, they want to work it out. And I think that's common, even in our personal conversations, you know, what's the end goal, and I don't think the end goal is often to blow each other up. Right, but because that doesn't work out for either party, but I think the end goal is to reach that common mutual understanding where we can both benefit. Even though that sounds sort of counter to litigation, I think that's generally the goal when people enter into something like that.
Mary : Yeah, it sounds to me like you're doing something that's so emotional, you know, the times right now. So heightened emotions, litigation, what your work is, is always textured with heightened emotions. And we talked about putting your emotions on trial, to go to that, like logical or like fact base place. And it sounds like you're like a medium for, for helping people do that.
Misasha : Yeah. And I think it's interesting. The, you know, putting your emotions on trial, and because I also think about it as, especially in personal conversations, right, you're not the prosecutor, right? Like, you're not the one who's like going to prove this case, necessarily, like that's not your role. And that's not my role as an advocate for someone either, right, I'm not necessarily going to prove a case just by listing facts and getting the other person all riled up, like, what I really need to do is to find how to connect with them. And part of that is from listening, part of that is letting my own defenses like subside, and breathing is key to that, and just taking a moment taking it in, like listening to what they're saying and what they're not saying maybe as well.
David : I think, for me, like when I think about trying to I mean, I have to assume that is learned, but I try to like, always lead the conversation with that listening perspective, like, I understand that my perspectives are limited from a pretty narrow happens to be white male, middle class, lens. But because no matter what all of our lenses are so narrow, I want to have the conversations with the other so I can learn the perspective. Like to me, it's just foundational to be a more complete human to better understand this whole experience for everyone. So how, like, what's a tool? How do we get there faster? Or how would you encourage someone to lean into that a little bit more?
Sara : I mean, what I heard you just say was realize that, you know, you're not your perspective isn't the only one. And I think we have to encourage people to remember that as a step one, because, you know, in our country going back to that narrative, we've really focused so much on meritocracy and I did it by myself and I am so strong. And, you know, you think about the mother, like as moms you're like, I'm not gonna rely on anyone, I am so strong, I can do it all like, that is our downfall. And, I think the truth is, you know, then there have been books and studies, none of us do any of this alone. So we need to start by first appreciating and taking stock and encouraging our, you know, the people we're in conversation with, so even appreciate that, like the firefighters, the police, men, whatever you think about police right now the people who pave the road that collect your garbage, like there are so many things that are being done in this world, for the community and we are part of it. And so if we start there, and then appreciate that maybe if there is all this community that maybe my voice isn't the only truth, and that there are many, many different truths out there, and then we can start being curious. I think that shifts the conversation in a different direction than the one where you're sort of selfishly going like, I am right. And this is it. And I am alone. And you know, it's more angry.
Mary : Yeah. Which to me, I think really, just like, what you guys focus in on is it starts at home. I mean, I'm, as you were talking, I was thinking about conversations that I have with my kid that I educate him on, on really what's behind the scenes for something that he perceives or observes. So that there is that more of a, it's not just it's not a global perspective, even though I truly believe in that. But it's like more of just community and the backing, I even was thinking about, like social media, I think a lot of our perception of these, these very dominant figures, or powerful figures, there's, like, they just post and it just happens, it's what they're doing by themselves. And that's totally not the case, one of the most amazing influencers I've spoken to, like, they will get honest around, it's a team, like I even love, it's as simple as that. But there's a team behind every force that's happening. And when we're so driven by media and social media, right now, it's so easy to forget that because what's actually what you're perceiving and seeing on your feet, or whatever it may be, for a very short amount of time. Looks like just an individual looks like a very powerful individual that you could not even grace or touch with, you know, like, how could I even be something like that? So do you guys have conversations with your children around? You know, what's an example of a conversation you've had with your children to give them that community perspective and connection?
Sara : Like, what doesn't have that? Our dinner table conversations? It's been, it's been interesting, because my kids present is white. And yet, because like, it's, we have so many conversations about other like perspectives, because it's so important, especially for kids who present is white to understand that there is not the only narrative, and, you know, it'll be stuff like, so and so is really smelly at school, you know, and he wears the same clothes all the time. And then it's like, let's slow the conversation right down and say, What else do you think might be going on in their home? Like, what do you have that they might not have access to? Like, what are different explanations? And there could be multiple different explanations for this, you know, but just understand, like challenging them? And then they come up with the answers being like, Oh, well, maybe they don't have the parent to go buy them deodorant, maybe they haven't been able to shower for a few days, maybe they don't actually have any other clothes. Or maybe they just want to be like this, you know, like, there's so many explanations. And I find that I'm trying very hard to train the kids to think about alternative narratives. So they can develop a sense of compassion, and also ultimately be nicer to themselves, as opposed to like, they mess up on something. And they take it internally and go, like, I'm a failure. They might say, Well, you know, this, and this, and this had happened, and I was having a hard day. Mm hmm.
David : I love how you talked about loving yourself, like we touched that. loving others, like, why can't we just get back there at the very beginning of this, but it seems like so much of loving yourself is such a part of that, and, and even the individualism that you touched on, it's like, we've learned that to love ourselves, we have to be individual or that success looks like being completely on our own. When in fact, the reality that's just not possible. That's not this experience. But we've almost equated loving ourselves with, the more independent we can be, the more we can love ourselves. And again, that's all like, not true.
Mary : I also think it's interesting that the shared connection comes from like, okay, you know, even in your two relationship, it's like, here are the things that we share, and that's a part of the foundation of our friendship. But then, there's clearly so much about the strength of your friendship, you know, that is probably about having had disparity or in perspective, and having had conversation about that, that would take it but yes, maybe your friendship was founded, and both being half Japanese and a mom and a mother, you know, so on and so on. But I would imagine that it's stronger through disparity.
Misasha : You know, it's funny, because I think, I think it's less disparity and more challenge and, like, I think, you know, Sara pushes me and challenges me and she's laughing now, which I know but we are, we are very different in some ways. Like, you know, I used to say as the emotionless robot on our podcast, and she's like the touchy feely, you know, being a litigator, versus you know, a life coach, we come at things from very different perspectives. And I totally overanalyze things, among other things, and come at it, you know, in one particular way, and then Sara will come in and ask a question or say something. And I think that's when, you know, I'm challenged to think a little bit bigger and differently than how I would otherwise think about certain topics, and especially the topics that we cover on the podcast. I think that's why we can have these conversations because we come at it from different angles. So when we're modeling these conversations, we're modeling it for a whole host of people who may, you know, identify more with Sara or identify more with me, or maybe fall in the middle, and they can see themselves or parts of themselves and how we talk. So I think that's one of the real strengths of our friendship evolving over the years, is that challenge component.
Mary : Do you think that you are more productive in these conversations where you are different, because of the foundation of your relationship?
Misasha : I think that, you know, these are really tough topics. And I think that to go as deep at times as we do you, you have to have a strong foundation, because there's a level of respect, you know, and that love that. We were talking about the start, like, you know, even if we were to disagree about something, I still love her. So we can go back to that. But I think if you're trying to have a very deep conversation without that foundation, then it's very easy to have those fractures and those misunderstandings. And then someone steps away, just feeling wronged or hurt, and you can't get back to that level, that deep layer of love and respect, because it didn't, it wasn't there to start
David : A phrase that I hear often, especially when you get into conflict, and you mentioned how you don't like conflict is, let's agree to disagree. And then for me, every time I hear that I'm like, just roll my eyes in the back your head, but what you just said was, hey, we have love and there are times that we agree to disagree. How does that phrase make you feel like What does agreeing to disagree really look like? In a really healthy way?
Sara : It's funny, because I agree with you, like when I hear let's agree to disagree, I feel like it's very dismissive. It's the end of this conversation, and you're like, I'm done with you. And like, I don't care. You know, like, I'm not gonna change my mind. You know, yeah, it's important to know, like Misasha and I think, you know, I abide by this whole thing about like, there was this couple, this fictional couple, and they had a home, and the husband wanted the pool, and the wife didn't want the pool in the house that they were going to build. And what they did, they were never gonna, you can't agree to disagree, because then, like, what do you do, but they defaulted to the person who cared more about their decision, you know, like, the wife was truly terrified. And you address the concerns like about the kids drowning about the money, when you address all the foundational concerns about it, then whoever cares, more can be, have their needs met, and the other person appreciates that and is willing to compromise because they care, they understand how much that other person cares. And you know, so I feel like it. You have to understand the other person's perspective. And you're not going to then disagree. I think, an example recently, Misasha and I were doing an interview. And it was, like, of a person whose experiences could have been a trigger had we pushed and pushed a little bit more. But after we finished the interview, I was like, man, we should have done this and this in this and I wish we had, and I was beating myself up. But Misasha was like, that would not have served the purpose of this interview to bring this perspective, well, then you would have damaged or potentially triggered the individual we were speaking to, so why, what purpose would that have served? And, I mean, I immediately stopped beating myself up because that made sense to me. You know, when you really get to the foundation of it, I don't think you can agree to disagree unless it gets to the line for me at least of you’re disrespecting my humanity. If that that is a for me a hard line. And I think one of the frustrating things I've felt lately is that there's a lot of shifting lines. And people are not least in the media holding some of these lines that I think are foundational to humanity. And that's what is triggering me recently with some of these conversations because you can't, to me, you can't move forward then.
Mary : I'm so curious because like I've, you know, I'm an admitted, diagnose people pleaser. So I feel like in a conversation if I was having that pool conversation with my husband, I would maybe, you know, having the conversation to be like, who cares more might have been challenging. Maybe not as much today but three years ago, nope, no question. And I'm wondering like how maybe with you as a life coach, would you help Someone prepare for conversations like this? Or what would you ask them to be able to identify like, as a people pleaser? I think sometimes you don't even know what you care about, let alone how much you care about something. So how, how would you guide someone to get to a place of understanding that so that they can come with their full human self and be equipped to be in situations?
Sara : Yeah, I mean, that's like a whole life coaching, like, whole set of sessions. But I think there's some fundamental things..
David : And people can find you where?
Mary : I’ll call you after this
Sara : There's some things that we need to learn about ourselves that are not taught in school, in order to really like, yeah, embrace our humanity and its stuff. And some of these things change over our lives, right, like I am a different person than I was before I became a mother, because my values shifted. You know, I found strengths in me that I didn't know were strengths. But I think you start with some of these, like an easy fix is, like or start is like, do some of these character strength assessments so that you know what your strengths are, someone else has told you that. So you're not guessing at it, there's like the via strength survey, like on the character strength, then you can do your values, like, if you're in a partnership, find out what your values are, and your partner's values are and put them on a wall? Like how do you make your decisions as a family? Is it a sense of love? Is it a sense of whatever you know, and then once you get to know that, then all of a sudden, I would also say, get in tune with your body like it requires slowing down. But I think our conscious minds can process some information, right, when we're able to communicate what is on our mind, but our bodies and our intuition. After you practice it more and more and more is really, really smart and can take in so many more bits of information per second. And so if you know where your anxiety lives, for example, in your body, and you feel that twinge of your stomach, you may not know the answer to the problem yet, but you know that you need to set aside some time and listen to that and mull it over. And then I do like the journaling. I mean, I've got like the I modified The Artists Way. And I just took the idea of handwriting, they have this thing called morning pages to like, get yourself out of your own way. Yeah, I with kids did not have the bed not being a morning person. I was like, I'm not getting up every morning to hand write three pages. But the moment I have my brain spiraling or something feels unsettled, I grab the same notebook. And I sit down and I write the handwriting three pages, whatever, even if it's I don't know what I'm writing. Like, I just that's my discipline, because that is what gets me out of the way to understand what is about like bothering me so that I can do something about it.
Mary : It's so interesting how doing an act of writing, though, because that's like, I would think of that as like a logical practice. Actually, I'm hearing that it takes you though into your body, it slows your nervous system down and helps you get to a place where you can hear what's happening to your body.
Sara : Yeah, I mean, there's a study that showed that when you're analyzing a situation that you're not sure about like that is causing negativity, I mean, any of us have basically three main forms of processing information you've got talking about it, you got thinking about it, and you've got writing about it. And when you are processing, something that feels negative, the worst thing you can do is just sit in your brain and think about it, you have to talk to someone or you have to write in order to be able to analyze things. Because when you are caught in your brain, you tend to spiral downwards versus getting that out, and sort of having an opportunity to reflect back on it. And the opposite is true for good things. Like you don't want to analyze why you had such an incredible time, you know, at this particular family dinner, because then it takes the joy out of it, you want to celebrate it, acknowledge it, be grateful, but you don't want to be like, I wonder what about that dinner was so amazing with my family, like, you know, you just want to appreciate it. So those are the tools that I know from like positive psych and life coaching world, that when you're having a difficult conversation, whether it's about race or any of these other topics that like the pool, give yourself that space, that permission to process it however you need to if you need to call your version of your Misasha and be like, Oh my god, or texting, I mean, the amount of texts that she had, the number of times I have had, like a soliloquy on text, and I'm like, thanks for listening. And she's like, I didn't respond to anything. I was like, I figured it out. You know, you just need to get it out. And to process it.
David : And that's amazing. Those three things. It's like the brain is inside your body, obviously. And so getting it out in a talking way is almost like an extroverted way of processing information and then writing it. It's still getting out of your body but maybe in an introverted way, but still out of your body like getting it out. It's not stuck in your head. Super fascinating
Mary : I wonder though, too. I was thinking of you David. I think I was thinking of men in that where I was like, man, I feel like immediately, because processing out loud is I would argue probably a little bit less in their repertoire. Like that's not a tool that that has been used or taught to men as much in growing up and being a mother of a three year old, that's been really important to me to instill is that ability to process and talk out loud, so that he can, I mean, if if you're giving him a third tool to be able to have an emotional intelligence and a self awareness, I hope that for men and I know that you're very, very well versed in this, David, but I would consider you know, more of a feminine energy in the way that you can tap into that processing. And I just wonder about that. I just thought, Man, I wish that we could equip everyone with that
Sara : that's amazing that you just intuitively like processed that because that is part of the reason why when they think about marriages, why men benefit so much more from marriages, because they now have a more built in person that they can talk to, versus women who are constantly. girlfriend, I mean, we are constantly talking as women you were connection finders right, so well.
David : And that's exactly what I was gonna say. I'm like, throughout my whole life. I've always had strong women, non romantic relationships, like every stage. And I feel like that's where I did learn those traits. I was a man's man too, Eagle Scout, Boy Scouts did all that kind of stuff. But I felt like I always had this balance. I think that's why I'm so passionate in other areas of work around women empowerment. Like I want to strive for this equality even in my marriage, because it's better for men too when we do it well. Like, Come on, guys. Let's get going. It's really good to process out loud and embrace that feminine characteristic is it's really a beautiful thing.
Mary : Yeah, yeah. That's, that's super cool. And I'm wondering, so do you have Misasha and Sarah, what are your children and their ages?
Sara : so I have two girls, and they are upper elementary and middle school sort of grades. Oh, we're all online. This has been all they're up there. They're in the house right now. So if you hear screaming because someone touched somebody else's thing, I'm sorry. But
Mary : I bow down to you, I'm like, I feel so lucky that I have a three year old right now that I'm like, Man, that's I never thought I would be like I have a toddler and
Sara : You are a rare unicorn. Not just because you are born and raised in Colorado. But because of that most of the people that I've spoken to were like, Oh my gosh, what do I do with a toddler at home? I feel like my kids are to be fair in an incredible sweet spot. Like, they can get their own snacks right now. Yeah, they're hungry. Yeah, cuz I pull it. I don't have to worry about that. So.
David : Yeah. Those are the days that I'm dreaming of.
Mary : And you Misasha ?
Misasha : Um, so my kids are younger than Sara's I have two boys. And they are just in sort of lower to mid Elementary. So one was in here asking where the scissors were. And I was like, you know, where six pairs of scissors are in this house. Okay. scarily enough, you do but you know, there's sort of a constant flow right now with distance learning. Yeah.
Mary : Yeah. So with both of you having you know, Japanese heritage, I would say that a lot of misconception would maybe be that conflict would not be as welcome. Is that true? Was that your experience growing up? And do you feel like you're doing something you know, radically deviant and progressive by going there?
Sara : My mom is not a typical, like, if you're gonna do the typical thing. Misasha’s totally laughing because she knows my mom's stories. Mom, if you're listening, I love you. She's not a typical Japanese stereotype you could ever imagine, other than she's not that tall. Like, that's the only thing that I would say. And she married a white guy and left her homelands. Like, there is not a right like she's incredible and raised three kids and all this sort of stuff. But I will say I grew up because of that navigating conflict my whole life. Like there were times where I'm like, I'm American, you know, I identify very strongly as like half Japanese and half white. But being born and raised in the States, I wanted to go do Girl Scouts and I wanted to play soccer, like all the other kids did, but I had Japanese Saturday school on Saturdays, like my whole growing up years. And so I would have these like, but why do I have to and my dad very much was like, No, your mother is Japanese like from Japan and there are goods and bad's that come With it in your mind, but this is what it is. And you need to understand that she will not be like your other American friend, moms, because this is our life. And this is how we are choosing to merge the values of the cultures together. So I can't say in terms of conflict resolution that I mean, any mom with three kids probably has lost it, including my mom and I have done it, you know, my kids. So I don't think the Japanese stereotype fit into our home. But that is how it played into it of this constant sense of compromise and understanding and realizing that there's an other perspective out there. Mm hmm.
Misasha : I think that was similar for ours as well. I mean, my dad is Japanese. So that was a difference, too, you know, and, and he was the only member of his family to leave Japan, and still to this day. And, you know, there was some parts of him that are very traditional. And I remember arguing about prom, because I was like, prom, is a big deal. And he's like, I don't understand. I mean, your uncle says that his daughters, my cousins have a curfew of 7pm till they're married. So this whole prom thing beyond me. And so my mom basically had to go to bat. And it's like, no, this is like a thing. And you know, we'll need to let her stay out a little bit. And so there was sort of that balance of some very obvious cultural traits in our house, but also my dad, like Sarah's mom lived in the US, and, you know, had been in the US since he was a teenager, and had gone through college here. And I think that also changed his mindset. Like we were very much growing up, there was not sort of a in Japanese culture, there's a lot of times a gender divide, right, between what men are seen as and how women are seen. And my dad was raising a sports team, basically. So we would have the Suzuki team and we go out and play baseball, we go out and play football, there were no fouls. So you know, I grew up with a brother and a father, who was very there were everyone was determined that we were all going to be equal. So that was very fundamental for me, as well. So I think, but at the same time, you know, we'd go to Japan, and I would see and living in Japan, I would see that that was not the case. And the culture that was there. And my brother, being the only boy out of all the girl cousins was treated very differently. So you know, there was sort of the like, Sara, I was balancing in my house, you know, it was always, there was never just one narrative, it was always a set of narratives and a set of truths. And, you know, yours is somewhere in the middle all the time. And so you're navigating that growing up.
Mary : Yeah, I feel like right now, we all have, you know, we all have our stories that either service or don't serve us and then layering on top of that is every other additional stressor over 2020, you know, every time that people say 2020, it's like, haha, you know, and it's not I mean, Dave and I talked about, like, it's not just gonna change on January 1 2021. Like this is, this is a part of the new norm, it's intentional, but the discomfort that we're talking about, just like in conversations, I think that it's purposeful. There's a lot that's coming out of it that's growing out of it.
David : Yeah, your podcast, I think is an example. Like, there's a lot of changes that COVID and what 2020 is bringing, like, it's bringing light to a lot of things that we need to address. And I am very hopeful. 2020 has been actually very hopeful, because I'm so glad that so much is being exposed right now that there are more people that are wanting to have these conversations. And like even just getting back to the whole point of this topic. It's not if they're going to happen, but truly when, how do we continue to be more prepared, so that can lower the emotional temperature of the room.
Sara : I love that you asked that because one of the things that the surveys are showing and that we're hearing is that white people are tired of this conversation. And yet and and I think also what 2020 aside from being an absolute dumpster fire has taught us is that we are really resilient as people because we're still making it through. We're adapting. We're making this craziness, our new normal, but what I don't want to see is people say, Ah, this is the new normal, I'm not going to talk about it anymore. So I agree with you we need especially for people who don't identify as black to really be okay, leaning into the uncomfortable conversation and continuing this as a lifestyle not just as like a thing that we talked about in 2020 Wasn't that fun? You know, like, didn't I grow so much. And here we are. Five years later, nothing has changed because it will take years and it will take collective effort and a lot of discomfort to carry on to make change.
Mary : Well, so I lost my father at the beginning of COVID. And it was a very bizarre grieving process. It was the closest death I had ever had. But the reason I bring this up is because I feel like the experience that I had, I feel like we're there's grief happening in a global way that it's a death of an old way of being. And think what happens when someone dies is that there's this immediate sort of like coming together and there's sympathy and you pay attention to it, and you feel support. But then over time, it sort of just becomes this, like, it's not really talked about anymore. And then it's like, oh, it just happened. And then it's in the past, when in actuality it's with me forever, right? I'm forever stamped with a new way of operating as a part of it. And I feel like what's happening is that there's a similar thing where I want it to be so desperately, like, what if we could continue to ceremonialize in a way the death of the way that we used to operate, and keep remembering that, yes, there's mourning to be had for many, but there's also a, I hope that we can keep going there and keep reminding us that, that we need to have this conversation, then it's not just the funeral and be done. It's the funeral. And then and I think actually, what I think about even in the Japanese culture, it comes up for me too, is that I've loved the way that death is celebrated and ceremonialized. And I'm like, I wonder if like, you know, another cultural perspective of that could be little bits and pieces of things that we could bring into the way that we're, we're operating in grieving the old way that we were but continually resurfacing these hard conversations.
Misasha : I love that because I mean, in the Japanese culture is true. There are so many memorials and yeah, you know, and a constant reminder of, you know, the family shrine and the house and you're always relating to your ancestors and a whole host of levels.
Sara : And don't forget, like at the beginning of it, you pick up the pieces of your relatives skeleton with chopsticks, you face death. Oh, yeah.
Mary : it gives me the chills
Sara : if you allow yourself to be really in it to really feel George Floyd calling out for his mother. If you allow yourself to be raw and real and appreciate that our experiences are so wildly different based on the color of our skin, or how we show up looking in this world, you can really, really feel that you'll feel that initial like slam of picking up like facing death, like dressing your deceased loved one's body, putting them into the incinerator picking up their ashes with chopsticks, which, incidentally, is why you never share food from one chopstick directly to another chopsticks. The only time you have two sets of chopsticks on something is a dead person's bones. Wow. And you put it into the urn. So then going after that, to your point Misasha about like the constant celebration, the reminder, the yearly, you know, and then the daily shrines. And I mean, all of it, it's really cool that you pointed that out
Misasha : Well, I think also, it's important because you know, Sara, when you're talking about how we've seen all the studies now about sort of white fatigue again and saying, you know, like I'm past this, I think it's really important to remember that there's so many of us who cannot look away, you know, like my eight year old, you know, he's been reading this book about or he was listening to Jackie Robinson talk talk about Jackie Robinson, because they had all of the MLB Major League Baseball was celebrating the Negro Leagues. And well, anyway, that's a whole separate story. But he was like, well, Jackie Robinson, you know, when, how did he die? When did he die? And I said, Oh, he was in his 50s. And he's like, well, how did he die? And I'm like, looking it up on my phone, because I have no idea. And he's like, did a white person kill him? And I think, you know, this is what 2020 has meant, in some ways for our family. And it's very hard. I think, if you're thinking about this, too, like death is and going back to the grieving process, right? It's very personal for some people and other people have the ability to look away. But when you support the person who is dealing with that grief, and that grief that might be continuing because it's quite an onslaught on a daily basis. You can't look away, if you're actually doing that work. If you're actually trying to be there and supporting that person. You don't have that option anymore. So I think that's really important when things get tough things get tired, stopping, having those conversations is looking away. And so in order to keep forward motion, we need to keep having those conversations, even if it's you know, small conversations, a thought a reminder, some discussion with your child, while you're watching some show. It can be very small, but it needs to keep happening, I think.
David : And that's an example of where I continue to see privilege. Like as a white person, you get to choose to say okay, I'm kind of done with this conversation now and you can take that conversation, hat off when you are a minority or you just look different from someone else for whatever reason, you can't ever take that off. So guess what my whole life is fatigue like, and that's just what? I don't know. It's I'm just really frustrated and sad.
Mary : It'd be cool if there was a way to bring that ceremonializing into this, this 2020 people like a tangible way I'm trying to think now. And it probably won't come to me until later. But of something that I can physically put in my home as a reminder to like keep doing this work, keep welcoming the pain and the discomfort and to be an example of that to my kid and to my husband, so that it and then you know, emote that and I feel like when you I still believe that you attract what you're manifesting or how you how you present yourself and your energy. And so I feel like if if all of us are focusing on that in our home, and that with our relationship with ourselves to that it's just natural, gonna be this contagious effect that I dream of. And so I mean, I'll follow up with you guys and let you know and curious if you do anything to to like, put something tangible in your home?
Sara : I’m sure for Misasha, it's the living breathing three people in her home that she has, like, I don't think she needs a shrine. For me, that's like my friendship. But I think that goes to me that speaks to like having a reminder of your why, like, right that we talk about that a lot. Like why do you care? David, why does that bother you? Like, you know, what, how do we articulate that? And so would it be a photo of the person you love so much? Who's being judged? Would it be like a blacklivesmatter candle? Like, I don't know what it doesn't. But I think you need to know why you care. And that is enough of a reminder.
Mary : Hmm, that's beautiful. I love that. Jeez. I like I just have loved talking to you too, so much. And I feel like we could talk all day, but you have children at home to homeschool.
David : But I do have one burning question though. What message do you have for Dear White men?
Misasha : I mean, I think it's honestly, the same in a lot of ways. Like you, in particular occupy a space of privilege in this country, where you can sort of move into any space, and know that you're a given the benefit of the doubt be, you're largely going to be safe, and see that people are going to listen, when you speak, you know, and and really give weight to your words that a lot of people don't have the privilege of having. So I would say use that privilege, use it because you have so much of it. And David, like you were saying, men do better when women do better. And that is true for all of our marginalized communities. Like we all do better. We've you know, Sara, and I always talk about, you know, we rise by lifting others we do and I think we've seen parts in our nation's history where that has been true to at least some degree and and now is not one of them. So I think we need to go back to that, use your voice because it's so powerful.
Mary : That brought up another question for me, of course, what would you consider a successful conversation, let's say when you guys have spoken with someone coming from a completely different perspective? And like what would be, what's your goal in a conversation with someone from a different person?
Sara : I think it's hard to say there's a success in one small conversation, I think it's a series of ongoing conversations, because you have to navigate the natural human instinct to get defensive. And there are going to be times where pushing and pushing just for the sake of achieving some notion of success is going to backfire if you don't let it breathe and come back to it, but I think it's the sense of persistence and humanizing. And, you know, going back to that idea of what is your end goal? Well, there's so much, right? There's like, income inequality, there's racial, like all of these things are tied in. So if you can shift the needle a little bit, in any one of these conversations, it could have a ripple effect on all of the other inequities and negative aspects of dehumanization that are happening in this country. So do you have a different? Like, I'm curious, Misasha what your answer to that would be.
Misasha : I would say just to feel heard, in some ways, I think that I agree with you, Sara, that it is a process and I think that what we've seen sometimes is that people sort of rush into having a difficult conversation. It doesn't work out so well and then you back away and you're like, well, I tried that that's not working for me. But I think the intentionality behind it and the persistence, you know, like we don't learn how to do things once by doing them once right, like we learn how to do things by doing them repeatedly and getting better at it and it gets easier in some ways. So I think there's that, like you start by trying to listen and to be heard. And, you know, that does require putting some of that defensiveness on hold, because, you know, I feel it every time we start having conversations to like it comes in you just, that is also practice, but to start to really hear is one of my goals.
Mary : And it sounds like even just a little bit of exposure to opposing perspectives like that in itself can be productive. Thank you.
David : Well, this has been amazing. Not only thank you for the time for this podcast episode or this interview, but thank you so much for the energy that you're putting into the work. It's just a beautiful conversation. And I really, just ultra grateful. Can you please share with our audience where they can find you?
Sara : Absolutely, dear white women is anywhere you listen to podcasts. We also have all of our episodes and a bunch of resources and information up on our website at www.dearwhite women.com. And our social media handles on Facebook and Instagram are at dearwhitewomenpodcast, and then on twitter at dwwpodcast.
David : Thank you. Thank you.
Mary : Thank you both.
Misasha : Thank you.
Sara : Thank you so much.
David : Well, thanks again for listening, everyone. I'm sure you all loved that interview as much as we did. Join us in the next couple of days. As we look more from the clinical side of how to have difficult conversations. We'll be interviewing a friend of mine Sonam Klein, who is a professor of cyber Psychology at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, just really excited just to bring in a different perspective, what goes on in our bodies and what's going on at a psychological level as we have these harder conversations or have these moments of conflict. So we'll talk to you soon.
