Ep 11 - Not IF But WHEN - Being Prepared for Difficult Conversations
We find ourselves in a world currently textured with heightened emotions. Often, in these difficult moments, our emotions go straight to a fight or flight response, which only adds fuel to! So why does our mind work this way?
Understanding how our minds respond will help us put small actions in place to be prepared for tense conversations that are bound to happen. How can we prepare our responses and use charged conversations to deepen our relationships and find the messy middle of the THIRD PLACE?
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TRANSCRIPT:
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place for us.
David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : We invite you into the third place
David : Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to the third place podcast. My name is David.
Mary : And I am Mary Allard.
David : So good to have you here. And I hope you all have had a good week, Happy Tuesday.
Mary : This topic that we're about to dive into, we think is probably the most important topic in this time. And really, it's because we've realized, and I think this is like a known fact with everyone, is that the world right now is just a place with such heightened emotions. I mean, you name it from COVID, to how that's affected you whether you know, it's just that you've lost a job or you've had grief or loss as a result of it or just loss in the way that what normal used to be for you. And now school kids going back to school or doing homeschooling the use of masks. And what that brings up for people and how people are responding to this change, politics and the upcoming election. And then just like your own personal response to all these stressors and shoot Mercury Retrograde
David : Yeah, the no end in sight, like. I mean, when I think about heightened emotions, just regular life has these ups and downs of emotions, these peaks and valleys and so even in normal times, there are these emotional milestones or life events, like I have a friend of mine, that's getting married. And so what's supposed to be this ultra joyous occasion. And, you know, preparing for a wedding is always stressful by itself. But now we add in COVID. And sometimes the wedding doesn't need to be delayed. Can I invite all the people I really want to invite, no one can really dance, but we want to still stop and celebrate. But also like grief, whether someone has passed from COVID or not like grief looks a lot different. And obviously that's a hard emotion and Mary, your dad at the beginning of COVID. You know, passing away and you couldn't even have a normal funeral. Right? So like, here's an already heightened emotion thing that's already really hard to do. And it's still like 1000 times harder because of everything.
Mary : Yeah, and so we feel like everyone's coming from this heightened state. And so we want to talk about sort of the human response to being in a state and how exchanging and conversing and relating with others, what our human response or knee jerk responses. And then we want to break down like, just some ideas and tools that we've discovered over time that we think could be helpful in preparing for, for conversations that are already coming from that intense place and making it more of a productive approach. And that by thinking about something prior, or by preparing for it, we're not going to just add pain to some experiences or exchanges that might already have an essence of pain.
David : Right? Well, and thinking about it, the reality is that the way our mind works in the brain or the way our brain is just wired to work is there is an emotional part of our mind. And there's a logical thinking part of our mind. And the reality is they don't really talk to each other very well. And so, when we have any kind of emotional response, it immediately gets into a fight or flight situation. And it's really about survival and how we evolved as humans and the logic part is there to really think through things and when we break down a fight or flight moment, usually whatever's the trigger the fear when we start to break that down and actually logically pull it apart. things aren't as bad as what the emotional response tends to, like knee jerk to do.
Mary : Well and the inspiration behind this conversation was like, we've all seen these viral videos going out, or a lot of the news has been has covered exchanges at places of hospitality, the coffee shop, you know, since we come from coffee and tea backgrounds, beverage backgrounds and whatnot, this has been something that has been a topic that is happening daily, where it's like, wow, you know, customer service staff, and otherwise are on the front line right now. I mean, anyone on the front line right now is, is in this place, where they are at the heightened emotions are there and we're seeing exchanges go sour, really, really quick, over something that might be what you would consider if you like, it's like, every time you have a fight with someone afterwards, you're like, like, how many times have you been asked like, Oh, well, what was your fight about with your with your partner? And you're like, oh, gosh, it was so stupid, like the start of the fight was that maybe she didn't put something in the fridge, right? Or like something. So it could be so silly. And I'm not saying this is the case across the board. But really, a lot of these exchanges, I think are starting from something pretty small on the surface. But that's because there's so much under the surface right now that's happening, that is maybe not being acknowledged, but as being displaced as something else.
David : Right? Well, that's such a great way to think about it. Because usually that small thing, it's not ever about the small thing, it's about pulling the mean, apart. And really there's this other thing that's underlying, and then yes, I mean, sneezing the wrong way, all sudden starts a fight, right? So that larger thing created the scenario where any small thing triggers the whole right response. So the problem that we have right now is, we've got so many of these tensions that we're all living through without an end in sight, like we just said, and so for so many people, probably you and I included, a small thing can trigger something out of what else seems like nowhere.
Mary : Yeah, what tips the scale, or what starts to avalanche sort of thing like it could be usually is something so little, and like. So from my experience, you know, I've been in leadership roles, and I ran a small grocery store. And then I ran a coffee shop and a tea shop and the juice bar and whatnot. So this is something that I was exposed to defusing, little miscommunications or minor conflicts, daily in as a leader or manager in this situation. And one of the things that I recalled like, everyone always says the customer's always right. But really, I think it's more that the customer just wants to be seen, and the customer just wants to be heard. And this conversation, I'll probably be speaking mostly from the lens of that perspective, because that's where my experience lies. But I've found that there are some ways to help both parties feel acknowledged, and not only defuse situations, but actually walk away feeling a sense of connection or understanding and that there could be a productive result to something that feels so unproductive at first. And I just really love this conversation, because I think that if we could all feel equipped with just a little bit of compassion, finding tools, then there would be a lot less news to be shared.
David : Hmm, yeah, I mean, for me, knowing that fight or flight is an emotional response that is so easily triggered, has been a tool for me. Like, if, if I react to something, I can see it, and then I can immediately know it's like, oh, wait, this is fight or flight kicking in. I've been able to learn that that's now a trigger, which gets me out of it just as quickly as it gets me in. Like when I see the fight or flight in me, I know. It's like the awareness of it allows me the tool to like pause and then get the logic part of my mind active again.
Mary : How do you recognize you're in fight or flight?
David : Hmm, well, I can feel it. I can just feel it in my body. I turn,
Mary : don't you check your blood pressure sometimes do?
David : Yeah, yeah.
Mary : But now you know what that feels like, right? Like when you check your blood pressure, and then you can feel what that result feels like in your body.
David : Yeah, it's like the phrase, I can feel my blood boiling, right. That's what it feels like. Right?
Mary : legit
David : oh, that's where that phrase came from. Absolutely.
Mary : So it's like heat
David : It's heats and it's just pressure. Yeah,
Mary : yeah. And so then that, that triggers you to to, like, get into a logic space and being in a logic space helps you be out of a somatic space?
David : I would say what, what it does is when I feel it, I know I need to, like probably shut things down, I think the most ideal and what I probably need to work on is when I start to feel it is like, hey, I need to go step outside and just take five minutes and walk or two jumping jacks or clench my fist, so I can get that energy out in some physical way. So that would be the end goal, I said, where I would say that I'm at now is, I at least can acknowledge it. And I know that I probably just need to stop talking, you know, and not add any fuel to the fire of that particular conversation.
Mary : What's cool is that that's actually still like a little bit of an action risk. It's an action response, not a flight, you're like taking action to do something, you're not submitting to it, you're acknowledging it, and then doing something, even if doing something is that you made a choice to do or say nothing.
David : Yeah, and I'll still say or do something, but it's like, after this scenario is over, and then I have people that I can trust that I can just like, wow, this happened so mad. And it yeah, that whole external processing, I can just process with someone and I don't need them, I don't need a response, I just need to like, Ah, this sucks, you know, and you know, kind of vomit emotionally with someone.
Mary : You know, when I was a barista, or a manager, I used to tell people that you would see the worst and the best of customers within a five minute period because I feel like, especially if coffee is part of or a beverage in the morning a warm beverage or going to the place as part of your routine and your self care. There was usually a sense of the person was somewhat in a stress state when they first came to you when they were ordering. Plus there is I mean, caffeine is a drug like there is a drug at hand and this story, but they would likely be in somewhat of a stress state because they had yet to have their routine. And then just in the transition from them ordering and maybe being really flat with you or, or not themselves, then in the first sip, like it was crazy to see the shift in from stress to euphoria. And that was like to see that spectrum within five minutes of people always fascinated me. But with that being said, a lot of the conflicts that would happen would be in the ordering process more in the ordering process than in the receipt of the drink. Because this person was maybe in a state the stress state is fight or flight. So there's, you know, that presents with foggy thinking, I mean, you also haven't had your caffeine. And so little miscommunications would happen every single day. And one of my friends who runs a coffee shop right now, they have to offer, how much the tip is because it's a no touch screen, they have to say, okay, would you like to give a tip which is already a little bit of a sensitive subject to begin with, and then that customers put on the spot, because otherwise you can like kind of secretly not give a tip or give a little tip or whatever, there's a whole like, moral exchange going on there. You can you know, and now the The barista has to ask and then select it for them. And this brisa didn't have an option to select what the customer had requested. It was like a very specific percentage. And so she did the closest to it but didn't ask permission. And that blew up into a massive moral issue between the staff member and the customer that was ordering saying that they felt violated and taken advantage of for what ended up being 11 cents. But I use this example. Because to me, this is exactly what we're talking about. It's like what tipped the scale for this customer. And I think so often, when we're in this heightened emotional state, we tend to want to put blame on someone and I feel compassion for the fact that I think customers or those in customer service especially or in hospitality or in health care or wherever there's an exchange where you may not actually have some connecting ground with the person and it's like the first time I think that's a very, very vulnerable exchange for this time in the world.
David : Yeah, well, and I can tell you like and maybe this is me trying to avoid conflict, but we are a roasting facility, and we don't have a coffee shop. But we do have like a little bit of a coffee bar. And so with not a lot of foot traffic for what we're trying to do. But for us, it's just like, if I had that exchange, I don't even ask the customer for a tip. And I kind of have found out the team has basically done the same thing and whatever. And we just don't even offer and we just don't do any tip at all. But it's a little bit different just because our model is not quite a cafe. But I did actually just read this at the coffee shop in Denver, oh, yeah. Like tipping is a different topic. But they part of their response in the in the pandemic was, you know, we're just gonna raise our prices, and get rid of tipping, right.
Mary : But that was also in response to trying to make a living wage out of a per barista position, which is pretty radical in itself, right.
David : But they have a whole bunch of people that embrace it. And then they have a whole bunch of people that like, were really pissed off. And I know for me as like, I'm, my idea around tipping is tied to service and what I get. And so it definitely feels weird. When not everything, almost every restaurant experience at the moment is picking up. So I'm for the restaurant industry. So I'm just like, yeah, 20% 25% even
Mary : even when you do take out?
David : When I do take out but it's still like, but if it weren't for the pandemic, and if it weren't for people that were really struggling right now, that's not normally something I would tip very much for just like $1 for you know, or whatever. So it's just awkward. and you're getting, you're asking, they're asking for the tip at the moment of the transaction. But I'm like, Well,
Mary : I would bet one of the biggest newly adopted practices is ordering groceries online. I was already ordering groceries online. But that's one thing. I still have no idea how much to tip, because that's an option. it's funny. I think we all go through this thing. We're like, Well, is there a delivery fee? Does that go to them? Is there this and you have this, like rationale that you've walked through to decide whether you tip or not, and how much and I still I don't know if there's a recipe, feel free to let me know. Because I'd love to know, but I've just been totally making it up each time based on how much I order basically. Yeah. And like, well, if it's this many bags, and it's heavy, like that's harder.
David : Right. Well, yeah, and it does go down to like, I mean, this is definitely maybe tipping should be its own topic someday. But yeah, wait, what is that living wage is how much is the responsibility of the owner? Do we? You know, that's one question I've been wrestling with is, what if I just raise our prices by 50 cents, and we just flat out don't accept tips, you know, but so it's like the dollar spent is the same, but we're kind of trying to remove the emotion and put the weight on ownership to like this. We pay people what they should be paid. And it's not up to the customer to fill in that gap. But that yeah, this is totally tipping is is definitely one of these spaces that is just weird and awkward and can be conflict inducing in these times.
Mary : Yeah, really what we're trying to get at though, too, is just that every time, we are faced with an exchange where maybe each person is coming from a different perspective, or likely, that's so often I mean, that's what the third place for us is like, okay, living in this dualistic perspective, living in a bipartisan political scene. And also, like, even the act of wearing a mask or not, is like making a stance, or at least that in some places, that's definitely making a stance. Right. So there's all these examples right now. And there's already an undercurrent of other examples of dualistic things. So there's these exchanges all the time where you are meeting someone and you don't know where they're coming from, or where you're coming from, and what are like quick ways for you to, potentially, there's going to be no avoiding potential conflict. And instead, just being prepared to find empathy, find compassion, and be able to meet someone where they're at. And one of those things that I like, has been one of the biggest mantras for me is remembering that when conflict comes my way or miscommunication happens, I remind myself, this is not mine, or this is not mine to own. And I think it's so easy for us to internalize. When an exchange happens, that feels negative in some way, to feel like we had a role in that or that their perspective of what's happening or the presence that they bring is a reflection on us. Like, I'll give you a quick example. My husband is one of the most amazing fathers. And he's very detail oriented. We're both very detail oriented. So you know, on many occasions, we're like, we're great business partners when it comes to having a rental property. But when you become business partners and having a child, it has a whole different tone. So I remember in the first two years of Sawyer's life, he would remind me of things like, okay, don't forget to feed him. And my response immediately was super defensive. Like, I know, I got it. I'm his mom, I've done this for two years, right? It was like, and so my experience of him saying, don't forget something was that I wasn't smart enough. I wasn't a good mom. I didn't know this. And then I became very defensive. And then what would happen was, like these little miscommunications all the time, and it became something that it wasn't. So then, instead of him doing something that was his own, where he just wanted to, like, say it out loud, make sure it was said, and then he could let it go. It became something where it was a reflection on like, our dynamic, and it was, that is something that I want to share, because I feel like this happens all the time in exchanges. And it's like, what if we could try to find a place of remembering one of the first things I think of is this mantra, this is not mine to own?
David : Yeah, I mean, my mind when you said that went immediately to that person that got mad about the tip, right? did what was it that they owned? How does the barista not own that part? And the backstory? None of us know, right? Did that person like, the day before their bank balance overdrew, and they got charged $35 from the bank, and the so there's financial stress that they lose a job we're living penny counts right now. And this was the one treat that they were doing? Or, you know, or was it like a dozen of other scenarios, you'll never know as the barista. But the bottom line is, you can't but to be aware that it's not your own. Like if the brisa owned, and I don't know how you don't own it a little bit. But the next customer that you serve, how do you not take that energy, and then pass it on to that person? Be like, well, this job sucks, or I'm done with this, and you make a crappy drink. And then now you've kind of passed on that negative energy.
Mary : Yeah. And I feel like even though, you know, okay, we could look back at this and say, she probably should have asked permission for that extra 11 cents, like that would be a way to prepare for the situation. Let's assume that that wasn't an option. And that wasn't necessary. It's not saying that she doesn't have ownership in the exchange or in her role in the exchange. To me, it's like, she doesn't have ownership over his response. So like that, I think that there's a very, very big difference there being like, okay, yes, you know, each conversation or exchange each person has a role. But it's, it's not saying that, that, that their response, and their actions are yours, you can still have your own. And it's interesting that we're even talking about how like, we're creating a safer, more productive exchange by making some separation. And I'm just recognizing this now. But that there's something really powerful about realizing that you're separate from someone's response. And then coming from that place, are all these amazing empathy tools that can happen in a very quick way, because I feel like a lot of these exchanges usually are not with people that you're very comfortable with or familiar with, and they're not your friends or your family. And so that's what I really hope to equip people with.
David : Yeah. So leading with empathy, I think that's a great thing to talk to you like, what are some examples of empathy tools that you've used?
Mary : So I love to do a practice. One of the things that I think that we all think of or have experienced is being in rush hour in traffic or those experiences where it's like we're irritated by a person that we may not know or things that are out of our control. like David, I think you've told me like you've struggled with some traffic anxiety.
David : Yeah, I don't out loud, cuss very often. When I'm driving, sure the gloves are off
Mary : or you put the gloves on rather. Yeah. So I've always been this sort of person. And one of my favorite times I was laughing so hard when I heard Dax Shepard and Kristen Bell talk on their podcast because they talked about how Dax is like, always rushing to get to the place. And then he's like, they're a minute early. And it was like that was the success of the whole stressful ride was the minute early, how successful, you know, at the cost of what? and Kristen Bell was like, I'm always the person that thinks about like, what if they're rushing to the hospital? Or what if they have massive anxiety on the highway driving like there was this? Like, what if self talk that happened inside, and that's something that I do. So I've tried to extend that perspective, what I call generous perspectives, to exchanges with people that are maybe new or unfamiliar. And in the customer service perspective, I always would teach my staff to try to think in that way, too. And that helps you find the empathy or help you to realize just like what you were saying, it was like, What if he just lost his job? And that 11 cents was what tipped the scale? Or like, what if this? So I feel like that practice of asking yourself, what if helps you have a generous perspective. And it's actually a tool I learned in couples therapy, or reiterated in couples therapy at 1 point too because it was helping you to remember that everyone has a mother and has a father in some capacity, and was a baby at one point. And it kind of speaks to like, what if you could think like, man, like, if that's the truth, that they are just lovable? I don't know. It helps you it helps you sort of soften your edge and lead with generosity.
David : Yeah. That came up for me a little bit recently, when Mary Trump published her book about Donald Trump, so here's the niece and she's anti Trump and I know that this is a safe middle space, but I'm not a fan of our president. And he makes me really mad. But she was writing about that childhood experience. And she has a psychology background, and was describing Donald Trump as a two year old when he was two. He had a younger brother that was born. And it was a really traumatic pregnancy. And after all that happened, his mother just bailed like, so at two years old, there was this kid who was desperate for love and attention and he was abandoned. And while it doesn't excuse any of the behavior of what I disapprove of with Donald Trump, it hit home for me because I have a two year old and if he got abandoned, I mean, I would do anything for my kid. Yeah. And if he were abandoned right now, I mean, that would be heartbreaking. For me on him. So to think of Donald Trump in a way that as a two year old, that was immediately abandoned, I now all of a sudden, have compassion, have compassion, not an excuse for what I see today. But, like, that sucks.
Mary : and just that, that certain things that happen, when you're younger, how they ingrain themselves, and how they translate to behaviors as you're older, I think that that's like, I mean, what a great example of trying to find a way to create empathy for someone that triggers you and makes you feel angry. So, I mean, generous perspectives, to me is like, something that we can all do really easily. And it could even be like, envisioning one of the people that you love the most, and you respect the most in that person you're exchanging with and sort of putting that or around them as you have an exchange. And that that is a way that's a really, really easy tool to soften that edge. And really what it comes down to, I mean, a lot of these like, you know, what's the difference between sympathy and empathy? empathy is it's a shared experience. Empathy is something you haven't experienced prior and but you're still giving love and light to right. So I think of all of these tools is just like, what you're trying to do or trying to infuse is, how can we connect with those that we feel disconnect? How can you sit with someone who's a republican and you're a Democrat, or whatever it may be or you're a male perspective and a female perspective, all this opposing perspective and experience and presence that we talk about? And how can you find a really quick way to connect so that relationship can be formed, and we can become a productive outcome?
David : Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that, you know, creating that space to mirror back someone's feelings. So many of us when we think about when we're when we're talking, and I mean, honestly, this is just challenged out loud, like, I need to make sure that I'm listening to you say something before I'm forming my own thoughts. Right, right. And in lifetime on this podcast. And so there's this, there's a tension and balance in that. And I think that one of the things that goes back to what you were saying about the customer, they really just want to be seen and heard. So connecting and mirroring back and like, we've probably all heard this listening tool. When we're in a dialogue with someone, you know, someone says something to us, a great way to mirror back and connect with is, oh, what I hear you saying is and so that forces you to to be listening to what the person says, and probably clarifies what that person was trying to tell you in the first place.
Mary : Yeah, I feel like that was like one of the first tools that I learned and communication was like, Yeah, what I hear you saying and I started to hate it because it felt so like you were being a psychologist or like, you weren't on any grounds is like, Oh, right. I hear you saying, like, especially when you start to like, practice it, then you hear everyone doing it. You're like, okay, like you're, you know,
David : it's almost like it was like a pretentiousness that came back at it. And so it was like a passive aggressive way. or something.
Mary : So when my mom who has her master's in social work and worked for many years as a hospice social worker, she taught me a different way, which I've used. I've loved this, and it's just two words, and it's so easy. And now every time I say this to you, you're gonna be like, okay, she's doing the same thing. She’s psychoanalyzing me, I start sentences with, I wish and, and I say like, to me by starting a sentence with I wish it's like I'm commiserating with you because I also wish it could have gone this way. So like, in a customer service exchange, maybe I would be like, I wish I could have done this for you. I wish that it was different here. And then, to me, that was my way of saying, like, I hear you, and I connect with you, I actually understand that you're pissed. And I wish I could do something more about it. But it's not that I'm disowning that I can't do something about it. It's just saying I wish I had greater tools or the situation allowed me to and it felt like a way of saying I hear you and I see you and I actually get it. And then when they knew I got it, it then they felt like I became human again.
David : Right. Yeah, I mean, that, that that's come up for multiple times with me about just masks. Like I you know, here's the policy that it's from the government, we enforce it.
Mary : Oh my god. It's true.
David : But what's and and, you know, we have had some customers like, I hate wearing masks. And like, I do too. Like, like, I'm with you on this. Yeah. You know, so,
Mary : yeah, I wish we didn't have to wear masks too.
David : Right, exactly.
Mary : But you know, but that can, that can follow by uh, but there can be like a second layer to it, where there is the let down, but it starts with like, a, I get it. And, and that's because connection is so at the core of just love and relationship, like, you know what they say, you know, when you're bitching about something, but you're bitching about it together, you're actually not experiencing hate in your bitching, you're experiencing love, because you're sharing in what you're bitching about with someone
David : Right? That's actually the thing that honestly breaks my heart with our current political climate is, you know, one side's patriotic, and the other one's not. It's like, we know, we're all patriotic, like, why did we lump ourselves in these two different boats? Like, I think we all want the same things. We all want really good education. We all want living wages. We all want a middle class. And we disagree on how to get there. But we really, we all want the same things. And how do we get past this fight or flight so that we can actually talk about getting to the thing that we want to get to? And it's really just sad. It really is. Yeah, it makes me very sad.
Mary : Yeah, I mean, that's the third place. That's why I love talking to you and talking about what we talked about, because I feel like there's so much room for this conversation forever where it is, it's both and maybe we can be sad and we want this or maybe we want this and think it could go this way. It's it's that and that we go back to it's not this, or this. It's this and this.
David : You know, the last episode we brought up, learning about yourself and the different personality tests and we talked about how Myers Briggs is my favorite I love for me, just the breaking down of thinking and feeling. And we even brought this up a little bit earlier today, or in this episode of, there's this emotional space. And then there's this logic space. And as people, we tend to gravitate more on one or the other. But that whole listening exercise, a friend of mine is a psychologist. And when she was in college, she taught me this trick, like when you're listening, you can kind of hear how the other person processes information. So when they're talking about, hey, this thing happens. And I really think that blah, blah, blah, Well, okay, that's a cue that they could be more of that logic space. So in response, if you said to that person in exchange, like, oh, wow, what I hear you say is that you feel that? And if I use feel, instead of think that person will be like, No, you didn't hear me at all, like, I'm, you know, and so, we always use think, or always use feel. And if we interchange them, then we kind of play well in both worlds. But very rarely do we exchange those. And then if you respond with the opposite, then that can also be kind of this trigger. Hmm.
Mary : Yeah. you know how there's that big masterclass website, where some of the highest expert, or most esteemed people in different topics have come on board to share different classes, I saw how one of them was speaking to something that I learned about in, in my time in sales, is that one of the tools that you can use in negotiation, which I feel like what we're talking about is there's like a little bit of a negotiation going on here is that you can echo out the last couple of things that someone has said. So that could be the, I wish, if you're hearing thinking and feeling, it could be as simple as echoing some of the same words that they had used. And so a lot of this is really easy. And I would say like, try not to be an expert at all of these things. Because then I don't think you are doing conscious listening, I don't think you are really trying to meet someone where they're at, it's more fabricated. find the thing that helps you feel like you can find a way to connect humanly with someone so that they can see you as a human. And what sits with you the easiest way is it the the leading with empathy, and really thinking about the grammar that you adore, when someone's screaming at your face or, or talking down to you? Or is it the tact of listening for the word think or feel like I just say, like, try to find one thing that really sits easily with you. And just play with it, like just experiment.
David : You know, I think I just hit me, one of the things that seems to be common, conscious listening, echoing back, even like, there's a heat exchange, I was mentioning, like, oh, what would be good for me, it's just like, stop for a moment and take a deep breath. One of the things that's common in all of those is like, making an effort to be present in that moment. Like just kind of, like, stop and be and that's something that we talk about all the time as being present. But I think as a society as a whole, and especially in a heated exchange, truly being present and aware of what's everything in that moment and not thinking about anything else. Which is kind of like the common theme of all these little micro tools.
Mary : Yeah, I mean, in our podcast episode on presence, we did talk about how presence finding tools can feel like more anxiety inducing. And that's why I always get wary of like, throwing all these out and saying like, okay, like, so what helps you be present? Maybe just like a, like, zoom in on one. And for me, the thing that has worked really well, and then I've gotten positive reinforcement by having something go smoothly, instead of the opposite, when there was an exchange that felt threatening to me, has been that I wish statement. So that's something that helps me see them. And on many occasions, I usually already feel like I understand where the person is coming from. And so this is my way of saying it without me sounding pretentious. And it's like, No, I'm, I'm telling you, I'm here with you, I hear you. All of these things are great. But another thing that we talk about a lot is that it takes practice and it takes preparation and it takes thought so I think like, kudos to you for tuning in and even listening to this because this in itself is like you're making space for this for thinking about this and conversation and if just for that dayenu you know, and go back to dayenu means like, that's enough. That's one of my favorite phrases like, if just for this, that's enough. Um, and but in being prepared, one of the things that I've used in the past, and I'm if you have if you grew up as an athlete at all, um, you would do visualization practices. And did you do visualization practices with Boy Scouts?
David : No, I did visualization, some in music, like in a piano recital, I would envision what the end look like or felt like,
Mary : so kind of like, the visualization. And it's tied to like a performance, right? And I feel like sometimes conversations are a bit of a performance in a good way that like when you're prepared, you feel like you can perform well, you can have an effective conversation. So I used visualization when I was an athlete growing up, and it helps to create your reality before it even exists. So playing out all these scenarios, one of my friends, he's even done something where let's say that you've had a heated exchange that went sour. And he's named Andy, you know, Andy. Andy is like one of my, I consider him like a little bit of a life teacher. He's very grounded and connected. But anyways, he taught me that you can heal some negative exchanges that you've had and reinvent your reality to prepare yourself for the next one, by actually recreating the story through visualization practice. So let's say you and I got in a fight. And I'm like, sitting in that cyclical thinking, and I'm thinking about how everything that went wrong, I did not find any connectors, we were so we walked away with no resolve, which is like, tortures me I hate when there's no resolve what I have tried, and I will admittedly, I've only done this like a few times, and I learned about this a long time ago, you can actually visualize it going the way of peace rather than no resolve, and just completely reinvent the story and then prepare yourself, create that muscle memory for the next time you're in a situation where you feel that threatened you feel that fight or flight to equip you for something that could be more loving at the end.
David : Mm hmm. What I like about this idea of being prepared is we're trying to engage both that logic and the emotional part of the brain before anything happens. And then the muscle memory like you just described, like, so if we have a muscle memory of what a good exchange or a heat exchange looks like, that went really well. It immediately removes the heightened part of the emotion like some anyway, to where we more quickly get to that logic space of, Oh, this I've been here before, I know what this could look like if I want it to go really well. So we're we are engaging, because both parts of that our mind, because both parts play a role. both parts are important parts of our, our being.
Mary : Well, that's probably why there's been so much conflict. And we always talked about this conflict is not the same. It's not synonymous with fighting, but there has been a lot of conflict because it's just uncharted territory. It's like you, you haven't had the experience to know that you're safe in the exchange, because it's the first time you've talked to someone about wearing a mask, or it's the first time you've talked to someone about their perspective on homeschooling, or sending their kid to school and the risk that that is so that uncharted territory is like what makes you feel unsafe, and you don't have proof that it is going to go okay. So by doing the visualization prior, and making up those scenarios, I think is really empowering.
David : Well, and I like the idea of, like, what is that one practice that you could do focus in on that, start small. And then they can build on each other one and then two, like, I mean, we're talking about situations that are really big, you know, but if we learn how to do the small things and learn how to see the small conflicts that we probably see every day, and just start to create those habits around the small practices, if we can live this out in the small ways it does set us up for when the big things happen. it's like learning. You know, learning how to do CPR on a dummy over and over again, is there to set you up for when you might actually need to perform CPR. Are you ready to go.
Mary : Well, and don't you feel like a lot of this time right now is like, maybe everyone needs a retraining. Because when you thought of when you said CPR, it's like, yeah, you do a training again, or you re up your certification for a reason, because it's been a bit. And so I feel like it's like, we're all in a place right now, where it's been a bit maybe where you felt this Max and this stressed and this triggered? And so it's like, what are the retraining that you can do to get yourself to a prepared state?
David : Well, something that I said over the last I don't know, a couple years even is I grew up thinking that you don't talk about religion or politics, because those are hard conversations. And they can be offensive or whatever. And I'm really starting to think that that's a mistake. Those are the conversations that we needed to have. So that we have practice, for when we have these harder conversations like, that's I want to talk about racism, I want to talk about the gender gap. And we've been trained not to have hard conversations. That's why I think so many people try to avoid conflict at all, like we've at least that's that was me That was my growing up experience that you're just No, those conversations are rude. You don't want to have those conversations. I mean, I don't know where the conversation needs to go. But clearly, we need to still have deeper, better conversations around this topic. And there's way too much inequity around it. And isn't the safer conversation to be talking about politics so that we have the tools to talk through this because we've got to change that.
Mary : Well, what was that in that Brene Brown podcast that we were listening to? She was interviewing the previous Surgeon General. And they talked about how like, everyone's like, yeah, just put people from a very strong republican perspective and a very strong democratic perspective in the room, and they'll hash it out. And it was like, No, that doesn't work. That hasn't worked. And so my hope is that little tools like this, it's more like, Okay, how can we find connectors? How can you connect with someone like one of the things that I've done all the time? In business development is like, what if you just acknowledge that someone has a beautiful haircut or a nice outfit or you like you like their smile like that in itself sort of takes the shield off and creates a connector, it can be superficial is what I'm trying to say. And that the more you do it, the more you actually start to recognize all the beautiful things that you see in people and then suddenly that you're like this complementor because you see things that are that deserve complimenting.
David : I mean, so this is an example of like, from a male perspective. I mean, I don't know if he three months ago, you got a haircut? I'm like, I want to say, Wow, that looks great. But I didn't want you to hear it the wrong way. So our relationship is strong enough for I did say something like, it looks great. But I wouldn't say that to a regular customer who was a woman because it could
Mary : and I could Oh, geez.
David : Yeah. So it's a lot. It's a little bit deeper.
Mary : Yeah, it is deeper. But I love that we can just name that and put it out there and say, like, acknowledge that and understand that that is that it's not just as simple actually as the superficial. Yeah, right.
David : Well, so I do want to end with one thing, too, because we've talked about like, micro tools we've talked about, you know, a lot of it's been put on us maybe to it's not our issue is that person's but still like a choice for us to realize. And sometimes there are for short conflicts that still need that boundary. So how does setting up boundary like when is that a trigger? Just kind of acknowledge that boundaries are still really important in this conversation as well.
Mary : Oh, yeah, well, that's something I'm still wrestling with too, is when to know when to set boundaries, you know, because you can lead with empathy all the time, just to be ran over, right? Um, so I would say like, maybe it's just as simple as when you've tried even the rule of three when you try three times and it's still not landing and it's at the expense of you, then honoring you is also a practice and connection with itself. So that's a quick way and I think that sometimes there's exchanges to where you can actually make it worse by trying to connect because clearly, it could be heightening their state of emotion. So I would encourage you to like, take note of how your responses are affecting them. And if it is just making them more fiery and more angry and more attacking, and it's fueling this monster, then that's when that's another sign of like, no. And then in customer service, that's usually like they I just want to see the manager, right. That's like, sometimes there's really a beautiful exchange that can happen, where I think that part of just getting the manager is just the break of transition. Like, I truly think that it's, yeah, of course, then they feel like they're seen and heard, and there's authority and that they're valuable, and they're important and all these things. But I really do think that there's power in these moments of transition. And when you can encourage that transition, whether it's taking a pause, removing yourself from the situation, bringing someone else into the situation or just cutting it out at all, that can be just as potent. And I would argue also a productive experience for you to learn from and feel like okay, there is still an outlet of safety.
David : Yeah. Oh, well, cool. Well, this is definitely one of those topics where we want to keep the conversation going. So next week, we have not one but two interviews. My friend Sona Klein is an adjunct professor of cyber Psychology at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. And our new friends, Sarah Blanchard, and Misha Graham, who hosts a podcast called dear white women. Dear white women is a really great podcast similar in some ways to ours, where it's dedicated to helping ease into real and uncomfortable conversations around race and social justice.
Mary : I am so excited for these interviewees. And this topic, we think is so important that we decided we're going to make it a couple part series because we hope that it's helpful.
David : So now we're gonna be right alongside you and learn even more and have more dialogue around this space. But again, thank you for being with us. And thank you, I think Mary, you said it great earlier, like, the fact that you've listened to this podcast is an action that takes us into having the better dialogues and we're gonna meet as many tools as we can, over the coming months of you know, it's not if Thanksgiving dinner is weird it's gonna be when Thanksgiving.
Mary : it's not it's not if someone is throwing something in your face. It's really right. Yeah, and so with each podcast episode, we have been turning these tools into something that you don't just listen to, but you can actually implement. To come along with this one, I will be doing a guided visualization to help you get to that empathetic state and hope that you can we'll post that as a little bonus episode and, and then we'll also be doing some other written practices. And one of the last episodes we even did like a fun Madlib to help you find your confidence, a sense of self. So please explore these tools that we post on our Pinterest and Facebook and Instagram.
David : Yeah, the idea of the third place podcast is definitely exploring that gray space. And it's certainly listening is and an action. But we really, all these platforms, our website is great. We're on Instagram, our music, like we have music that tries to speak to these topics. So Spotify and Apple Music, you can find our playlists for each episode there. And the whole idea behind these tools is to interact with each other and create that gray space, middle space in an active way with you. So lots of really great stuff. If you want to go deeper. There's lots of resources that we're trying to put out for you.
Mary : Thank you for listening, be well
