Ep 10 - Interview with Kirsten Moorefield on Personality Assessments
Episode 10 Interview! Please welcome our friend Kirsten Moorefield, co-founder of Cloverleaf.me as we further unpack the topic of Personality Assessments!
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TRANSCRIPT:
David : Well, hello, everyone, welcome to the third place podcast. And really part two of Episode 10 titled “who am I unpacking personality assessments.” If you haven't listened to the first part, you’ll want to check that out before we dive deep into this interview, super excited to have a friend with us today. Kirsten Moorefield of cloverleaf.me. Cloverleaf has just been a fantastic platform that does include a lot of personality assessments, and helps teams see where they're at and what they can be working towards. So we invited Kirsten in, and want to unpack what all these personality assessments mean, how they can be used, and how we can learn about each other, and ourselves. So welcome, Kirsten.
David : Kirsten, thank you for joining us today, I'm super excited to bring you into our audience that we were just talking. You and I have known each other for six years, and our families have really gotten to know each other really well. So just really great friendship has developed a lot of conversations, so much around personality and how we think and process and we met each other through just business book clubs and trying to go deep, real quick. And so yeah, that's who you are to me. And you have quite a story to share with people about taking deeper dives and knowing who you are and who we are individually.
Kirsten : Yes, yes. I'm very happy to be here. Thanks for the warm intro.
David : So, briefly, can you tell just for some context, a little bit about your work and your work at cloverleaf?
Kirsten : Yep, yep, definitely. So I'm a co-founder of a technology company called cloverleaf, and our platform pushes automated coaching to individuals about themselves, what's the best work that they can do, as well as their teammates? So how do they best understand and work with their teammates? There's a whole bunch else that it does. But that's really the part that we're going to focus on today. And part of that work is that I build partnerships with other assessment companies so that we can really get this rich psychological information about behavior styles, thinking styles. And we administer those assessments through our platform to automate that coaching to people.
David : So very cool. And what I love about your platform is it really maps up all of these tests. I think, for people that have done any kind of personality tests in the workplace, probably DISC is where they've started, just because it does a good job of putting everybody's personality together, and then unpacking how everyone communicates and works together. Why I wanted to bring you into this conversation is your platform is does it over multiple assessments
Kirsten : Yeah. And it's really great to do it that way. Because, one, you can dip your toes in with just one five minute disc assessment, or you can go deep with, you know, a bunch of different assessments. And the power of that is that you start to see different pieces of how the whole puzzle fits together, whether it's, you know, Dave and I are very similar on 16 types, but we're very different on disc, or whatever it is. And that starts to really color more about the relationship and what's really creating the reality that we're all living day to day.
David : Right. Yeah, I always feel like the tests are a really great snapshot and oftentimes can very accurately describe who we are and how we process information or perceive the world. But it is just a snapshot. And it's the best way to say it in a version of language and still not complete. And each test kind of has different strengths and weaknesses. So that big picture, I think, makes a big difference.
Kirsten : Yeah, there are a lot of skeptics out there. And that's like, so normal Actually, there are like personality types on those assessments that are known to be skeptics, and it's always funny, when you see that kind of lineup, you're like, of course, you don't like this, you're a four on the enneagram enneagram fours don't like to be put in a box.
David : That's funny. Well, I need help speaking to that, because I am not a sceptic, all of my experience comes from just the more I know myself, the more it helps me understand how to be a better leader, a better manager, a better person overall with all of my personal and professional relationships. So I love these tests because it just continues to, like I don't understand my own head and therefore keeps me learning more about myself, which helps me So can you speak to that a little bit? Or what? Where do you fall into that whole thing?
Kirsten : Like, am I a skeptic of assessments? Um, well, I can't be anymore because I've learned so much about them. But I mean, I definitely can relate, like, I can understand how people would be like, Hey, you know, if I just answered the same hundred questions somebody else did. How does that help you really understand why I do what I do. But really over time as you first get your results, and then as you get like, especially through cloverleaf, how we do like that automated, ongoing coaching. So it's not like a one time learning, it's really like, over time presenting it to you, people start to see Oh, my goodness, there is actually something to this, like, that is true of me. Or like, that isn't true of everybody, like where people can start to understand more. What used to be so unknown, or just taken for granted, you start to see it over time. And then that really is what kind of breaks down the skepticism is the accuracy.
David : So what is your personal story? Like, what is it that drew you to this work?
Kirsten : On the assessment side, I took an assessment in my 20s, I took strengthsfinder, when I was probably like, 24 years old. And I honestly hated my results. I was like, there's nothing strong about this. These are my weaknesses, like it said, you know, you want to be in a corner reading a book, or, like just thinking about problems in your head. And I was like, Yes, I do love to do those things. But that provides no external value, that doesn't create any work. And I kind of had my own journey of realizing like that I'm strategic minded, and that there is value in things that I used to actually be embarrassed by, and that I don't have to be the strongest individual contributor, like in terms of execution of work to be valuable. So I was kind of really stressed, thinking that's the one and only way to operate. And then I kind of opened my eyes to realize like, there's a whole complex system of how to be valuable to the world. But that said, that's actually not why I started the company, we didn't start the company to be an assessment company. And actually, that's only a small like, beneath the surface part of what we do, but it's just to provide such an awesome data set that we partner with tech companies to do that. The reason why we started the company is Daren, and I used to work together. And we had this team that just everybody loved coming to work every day, like, loved working with each other, got complex problems to solve, where we passionately disagreed, in really respectful ways and came up with really awesome creative solutions. And we were all overworked. We were all underpaid. We were all stressed. We all had normal challenges. And yet, for some reason, we just loved working together. And I just really wanted to scale that experience to people. Because there were also some people who came into that team and did not fit and did not love working there. Right. So it was really about how do we make visible this invisible thing about a team and about what it's like to have a really solid culture? And how can we help more teams build towards that?
Mary : I'm curious, did you come to the fact that then you dug into what your team dynamic was, and where each one of you was coming from, from that assessment standpoint to be like, Oh, this is the Golden Nugget that we need to share that will help scale that experience. I loved that statement, scale that experience. I've never heard anything like that before.
Kirsten : Yeah. Well, that's the beauty of technology is you can scale anything. So, I actually at that company, I lead a team and I had them take multiple assessments. And then we just went to my apartment one day and chatted about it. And it was like, as a leader, I was super frustrated, because I was like, how do I actually leverage this information? Well, so it wasn't the genesis of our company to be like, we’ll use assessments to change the world. But that just kind of is such an awesome data set. It just is presented through like 40 page reports that aren't very interactive, you know. So the reason was your question around how, like, why did we want to scale it? Or like, how did we come to assessment?
Mary : Yeah, mostly how you came to assessments or that in you realizing wow, you know, I've been in that situation too where I just had such a golden team like I can remember like, we called ourselves the Dream Team. Right. And how, because like, you could make up all these theories as to why you are that but like, how you came to assessments from that. And clearly, that must have been a piece of the puzzle of like, oh, there's a light bulb, of course, look at there seems like, you know, your cloverleaf platform is so visual, which is what I love. And to me, I feel like I can look at something, you know, whether you're looking at the quadrant, or you're looking at a pie, and you get to see where the balance lies. And so wonder if you recognized a pattern of balance, or if that had nothing to do with it, and then therefore, you're like, yeah, that's bizarre it?
Kirsten : Well, the interesting thing is that like, while, I did assessments with that team. Like, there's not one correct formula, like oh, you should have this many people who fit this box of an assessment to have the Dream Team, right. Like, there's no formula like that. It's actually more trainable things that make for a powerful team. So cognitive diversity is psychological safety. It's safe to disagree. It's safe to have conversations where you don't yet know the answer. Like, there's like, many other things like being curious about disagreements that you can actually train people into, but we are in a society or humanity, I don't know, is it just American, where like, if somebody disagrees with you, our default is to judge character. And so the beauty of assessment is it can visualize, and it can explain why some of these differences are happening. So it's not about like, you know, Dave is thinking out loud about an idea. And he's just always changing his mind. He's actually not changing his mind. He's evolving his thinking process. Whereas like, you know, somebody who's always asking questions isn't always challenging you because they think you're incompetent. It's because they're trying to understand the details, because, hey, somebody's got to get the details, right?
Mary : Yeah, it was like that awareness as a stepping stone to get you to have the compassion or have the ability to know where someone's coming from. I mean, like, one thing that Dave and I talk about a lot that has come up for me is saying that what you say is not who you are. And so to that, that made me think of that it's like, Okay, what if we can not be judged, by the way that we process or move through? or speak through things? And otherwise, just be curious and understand it? And then be more productive and relatable in that way?
Kirsten : Mm hmm. Yep. Exactly. Like, how can you just leave people room to be who they are, and to respect who they are, and to actually then like, see their strengths and leverage them, instead of feeling them as personal attacks against your own strengths or weaknesses?
David : It came up when you said you first took your Strength Finders, and then you didn't like the results. But now like in the team dynamic, to me, one of the things that speaks to both of those, and maybe as we wrestle with knowing yourself more is that weaknesses are okay, like, we all have them. And like even starting with that baseline, of, I'm not good in this area. And that's great. Like, that means I've gone into all these other areas. So whether that's the individual, like, I wonder if some people that don't want to take the assessments, it makes me wonder if like, we just don't want to admit that where we might have areas of weakness. And then also the same thing with the team dynamic like that we don't have to be right all the time that we can ask the question that we can say something that's wrong and be corrected. But that's still really healthy for a team dynamic.
Kirsten : Yeah. I mean, a lot of the skeptics that we run into have some baggage because of people misusing this, and putting the wrong pressure on you. And plus, we just all have this internal pressure to be all things to all people, right. And how much different would the whole world be if we just had the freedom to safely recognize I am not good at details. And that is exactly why I need Matt on my team, because Matt is awesome with the details. And I'm not attacked by that I'm actually grateful. And I'm also not feeling the pressure of I should figure out the details format. I'm feeling the freedom to go to Matt to help me figure out the details. So yeah, it changes everything when you can have the lens of it's okay that there are certain things I'm not good at. And I'm just going to find the right other pieces of the puzzle the right teammates to help me fill in those gaps. Not just for myself, but for our overall team productivity.
Mary : Yeah, something you said right now just struck a chord with like relating to the third place and where you said that people they've had assessments in the past and then it's been used against them when they understood you know, maybe it was even a making fun like, Oh, of course Mary is so this way. I mean, I think all of us have probably had little minor levels of that, but I've witnessed it and experienced it myself in leadership. And I feel like the goal of the third place, what we're trying to do is to create safe spaces to have dialogue that is charged. And I feel like there's a connection in what we're talking about, about how to create safe places, and how to give permission. Maybe you can expand on how cloverleaf is doing just that.
Kirsten : Yeah, well, I can see, the first thing that comes to my mind is actually through our product. So we went to a customer and did a roll out, like we implemented with a bunch of people inside this one company. And we went kind of like as observers to see like, what is it like when this happens with a bunch of people? Right? And it was interesting, because we got a lot of questions like, Hey, you know, I got this tip on Mary, it says that, like, positive feedback is really important to Mary. So does that mean I just never tell her where she needs to improve? And I was like, how about you ask Mary, that question? Or how about you? You know, like, it was just really interesting to me, the things that people started asking questions about was really missing some what I consider basic team information, which is like, you do have that messy third place, like you do have the space to ask each other questions, and you have curiosity to not know the answer, right. And also for it not to be about a judgmental thing. Like, I get this tip on Mary, that she likes positive affirmation, and then I just quickly jumped to Mary can't handle constructive feedback, you know, instead of being curious that, oh, I wonder how then I can better give Mary constructive feedback. so we actually created this huge email campaign. It's like, 20 emails long. I mean, how long does it take to like five months for someone to go through this email campaign, but it's it we call it our culture building campaign, that we now do with every roll out. Because it's teaching people some of these super basic things like how to have a growth mindset over a fixed mindset. so yeah, that's, that's one answer of like, how do we work to create that, to create the culture where people can be curious and ask those questions and have better conversations. But I will say it's really hard work. Because like, we do it internally, so for example, my co founder, Darren and I are pretty much opposite on a lot of these assessments were very, very different people. And it's wonderful to see like, back at the beginning of us working together, when actually there’s always stress when you're starting a company, but there was a lot of stress, like we didn't have income. Somehow both of our cars died, like this weird random life things happening. And like, through that messy process, where there was a lot of external stress, we were also just still learning how to work well together. And like he makes decisions so differently than I do. And so it really came down to us building trust in each other to be committed. And then from there, we could just wrestle, and we still do, like, it's very normal for the team to hear an impassioned conversation between Dareen and I, where we just see things really differently. But we view that as a benefit to the company, not as a personal attack to our own leadership or authority.
David : Yeah, the word that you use, often several moments ago was safety, but we just kind of keep coming back to even see that employees, like the leaders of the company and kind of going back and that it can be viewed as a healthy thing is also an example of safety, right for the team to realize that they can engage in dialogue in a similar way, and just how that's such a key foundational component of all these kinds of third place conversations just going back, its just going back to safety.
Kirsten : Yeah. And it is good for them to see it. But we do also have situations come up like where we're dealing with a team member's past baggage, like they have baggage of not having safety. And then we notice, like, we just have to call that out like, hey, you're actually not attacked, you are doing great work, and I need to hear what you're thinking or you know, like where it would be a lot easier to not have those conversations, but you have to lean into that to like train the culture because it is really going against the grain or we have other times when an employee is upset about something from another team member and we don't solve that problem for them. We don't triangulate that relationship. We help them process. We say great, now you know, you need to go talk to that person, right? And then we, we, we put it back on them to facilitate that conversation for themselves.
David : Wow, that's really cool. When you think about, like the evolution of clover leafs, like, what are the things that you're learning to continue to build into those around you as you learn more about yourself?
Kirsten : So on the personal side, I am very much a big picture thinker, I am really not good with details. They're very, very draining to me. But you know, I've had to do that.
David : So I don't know anything, about that, at all. I tell people all the time, I'm not good at details. And I have a similar team member in our ownership of our business, but the complete opposite of me. He's like, it's like, you can't walk. I'm like, No, I can walk, like, I can do details. But I'm really good at riding my bike. So let me just ride my bike, you know. And so it's still that strength, like, I just want to build and own my strengths and my weaknesses. And make sure I surround myself with people that are detail driven, so I can really keep focusing on vision and big picture.
Kirsten : yeah, okay, I'm gonna pause your question, I'm gonna dig into something real quick. So you said he said, it's like you don't know how to walk. And that's an example of the pressure of like, he is probably so good at details, that he doesn't understand that for some people, it's not that it's a choice to just be like I just want you to details. And this is nothing against your other member of your team, it's actually more just like a statement on humanity and culture that like we are so sometimes unaware of our own strength that we then perceive other people as having a weakness, instead of just recognizing this is my value, I have this value I can offer to the team, like that team member could do your books, or your whatever, like and rock it, and be proud of that. And then also recognize, like, I don't know how to ride a bike, thank god David does, like I'm gonna ask him for help on this, you know, um, so yeah, just a quick little tangent there. So yeah, I'm not good with the details. And so my next evolution is actually like, we're getting really close to some growth, where I can lean much more into my real strength. So when people talk about discovering your personality, your behavior, your strength, it doesn't create an excuse for you to stop doing some things that you need to do. But it can create awareness for you to start a career path towards what you are best at. And so I'm getting really close on my career path, to get to handoff and hire some people to take care of some of the stuff that they're going to just do so much better than me. And I'm really excited about that. So that's next for me. And also, I totally have room to grow in the messy third place. Like in actually having uncomfortable conversations, performance management, shoot, I could get better at that. Because I just love to think about the big picture, the potential for the future, I love to, like, just we're all Kumbaya and happy. But you can't have a high performing team, if you're not really productive if you're not producing work that you're really proud of. So that's a space I can still grow, you know, KPIs and holding people accountable and things like that.
David : that's why Mary’s laughing so much, because you and I are like, and I'm pretty sure Mary and Darren are a lot of like
Mary : well, what's coming up for me is I'm curious, like, so it feels clear to me that you are self aware. And that's what we're talking about. And I'm wondering with self awareness, how do you channel that self awareness? What are some small practices you've done in the past that once you have that awareness, that's taking you from one step to the next step that you're trying to go the direction you're trying to evolve? Or what's something you're going to wrestle with or experiment with moving forward to help you continue to use that awareness for keeping you on path?
Kirsten : Yeah, that's a really great question. So first of all, I think that self awareness is the first step to leading a team the best that you can, because as you become more self aware of how you're wired, you become more aware of how you are not wired. And that creates this grid of seeing the people around you. So you start to see like, back to the details example, for Dave and I are not good at details, Oh, thank God, this person is going to lean into them for that, right. So as you start to accept those things about yourself and see them about yourself, you can then start to see them about your team. And you can then create, like assignments and work for them that somebody has to do. And thank goodness, they love it, and they're good at it, right? But how do you build that? How do you get there, like, it definitely doesn't happen overnight. And I just would recommend, like, it's so good to just start with an assessment. I mean, the ones on cloverleaf almost all of them are free. So you can just go on and take some free assessments, and get your results and just look at them and find what really stands out to you the most like so for example, realizing that I was strategic thinking in strengthsfinder was the biggest thing that initially stood out to me and I hated it. But it then stuck out in my brain. And I started noticing, like, oh, leaders are strategic thinking, Oh, like, there's these different roles that I can do that have to do with that, right. So like, when you take an assessment, something will stand out to you, and it will be something you really don't like, or it will be something you really wish you could like more, but you've never given yourself permission for and sit with that. And I mean, there's a million things you could do if you like, really pay money for it, or get coaching or whatever. But like the most approachable thing is just sit with what really stands out to you. And give yourself carved out time to think about it. Like, I have a recurring thing on my calendar for 30 minutes, at the end of every day, just called no screen time, I am supposed to just sit and write in a book. I mean, you could call it journaling, but just write in a notebook, like get out of like everybody else controlling my to do list and just write out what's on my mind. And that leads to revelation of, Oh, we should, like delegate these types of things to somebody else, because I'm not good at them, or they're draining me. Or I can't delegate them to anybody else. But at least I can add this one thing to my day that does energize me, and is exciting for me. So yeah, I would recommend to summarize that, take an assessment, see what stands out to you and then sit with it, write about it. And the answers really do come to you. And if they don't, then there's coaches, and there's all kinds of other help out there. There are exercises, you can just google them and find them there are free resources and paid resources to help you and you deeper self discovery.
David : I love all that. I think that for anyone trying to think about self growth, how do you do it in a way that's not overwhelming? And how do you do it in a way that's not like another thing to do on your to do lists? But do you need to carve a little bit of time, but if they can be the small steps, then we can start to think and wrestle and, and grow.
Kirsten : Yep. And I mean, that's a really big part of it is like, do not listen to this and feel overwhelmed, because like then you take no action, there are baby steps, just take an assessment, see what stands out to you. talk to somebody about it, write about it, think about it. And that will eliminate next steps for you.
Mary : And maybe don't just stop at one because I have some assessments that resonate with me way more than other ones, just in the way that it reads or the way that I read it. Right, which I'm sure you could dive so deep into just that in itself. But I love that. And I think that I like to use it as sort of a game like you guys, I think I have gamified it a little bit where it is fun and playful and short and concise. So it doesn't have to be this super long, two hour comprehensive test, which is fun. But like when it does resonate with you, then maybe you dive deeper, and sort of just explore especially being that you guys offer all of them for free. I mean, that's unreal.
David : Yeah. The other thing like I think maybe this is next level and this 100% is third place, like to take the assessment. And sit with the thing that makes you mad about it or like that you didn't know or that you don't like about yourself, whatever. But then who is that trusted friend that you could encourage to take an assessment with you. But could you be a mirror for each other? Like, is this really who I am like, have you seen me respond in this way? And then that's definitely that gray space where that friends feedback really is probably the best thing that can help you unpack whatever assessment you take.
Kirsten : Totally. Yeah, sometimes one of the most helpful things to building self awareness is getting somebody else who sees us really clearly. And my husband and I have sometimes just spent like, an evening looking over each other's like 16 types report and being like, Oh my gosh, you do that. That's right. Gosh, that's so annoying. Oh, but it's actually a good thing. Like It's actually a good thing. Okay, here's how we can use that for a good thing in our family.
David : Well, cool. Thank you so much. I always just love hanging out with you anyway, but, and we talk family stuff. But we always talk about work stuff, too, because it's this. And it's super fun to deepen. And thank you for going deep with us and our audience and sharing some insights.
Kirsten : Yeah, Dave, you and I are both really passionate about how business can really impact the world. And one of the best ways to do it and start businesses and be self aware leaders and work really hard on not just creating excellent products, but creating excellent places to work where people can bring their best and be really proud at the end of the day. So what we're doing
David : that's what we're doing.
Mary : That's the hope that's the dream.
Kirsten : That's the dream.
Mary : Thank you so much.
Kirsten : Yeah, thank you guys for having me.
[outro-music]
David : Well, that was super fun. I hope you guys enjoy getting to meet Kirsten. Definitely go to the website, cloverleaf.me. Check out one of those personality assessments that you can take for free. Have coffee with a friend. Take a deep dive, learn a little bit about yourself and embrace personality assessments in the third place. Be well.
