Ep 09 - Who Am I?? How Personality Assessments Help with Self Care and Awareness
“Awareness is the greatest agent for change.” - Eckhart Tolle
As we think about being the change we want to see in the world, we have come to realize that it first begins with an understanding of who we really are. And who we are is VERY complex! Personality assessments can be great tools to better understand how we think, process information, interact with others, and identify what motivates us. There is no perfect test, but they can be great tools to begin to unpack how we see the world and ultimately how we can change, adapt and better the relationships around us.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place for us.
David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self, equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : We invite you into the third place.
David : Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to the third place podcast. My name is David.
Mary : And I am Mary.
David : And we're really excited about this episode. Are we ever not excited about an episode?
Mary : I mean, I think that when we broke down, when everything was so charged racially that was real. I don't know if it wasn't that I wasn't excited, because I think that it was something that we wanted to talk about and needed to talk about. But I felt really humbled for sure.
David : Yeah, so excitement is not quite the right word. But there was definitely a weight and responsibility and to bring that into the world was something that we wanted to do desperately. So there's that level of intensity was still there. But
Mary : yeah, and I mean, I think that the excitement does sit with this episode, though, because we feel like we've talked about a lot of really heavy topics, and this is a little bit more light.
David : Yeah. And honestly, like, we've talked about how this podcast is, in some ways, our relationship on display, I really think that this particular episode, is where our relationship began, you know,
Mary : Totally, that's so true.
David : You know, we met in, in the coffee and tea space and as a business relationship, but both being in leadership, and both leading teams, and both trying to really grow our businesses, we were often just sharing best practices, and whether it was team building, or conflict resolution, or even just growing personally, so many of our conversations would end up naturally in the space of personality assessments and learning about each other. And, like, I know, for me, when I was thinking about leadership, my first step is okay, well, it's not about the team, how do I really invest in myself understand who I am, so that I can better understand how my who my team is, and therefore then be that leader that I'm trying to be
Mary : Right, because being a leader, you and I both agree that being a leader, you're really in the spotlight, and that also the ownership comes from the leadership perspective, and instead of putting this weight on those that are being led so much, we think that by understanding yourself more, you can emulate that. And that is half the battle is being a self aware leader, so that you can then understand those that you're leading more and connect deeper and help them you know, I ultimately, it's about really helping each other evolve in that relationship.
David : Right? Well, I'm gonna be honest, I kind of geek out about these personality test.
Mary : You and I are such nerds over personality tests. I love them. Sometimes. You know how people, this is gonna be funny, because we're speaking on a podcast right now. You know how people are like, oh, like, you know, I nerd out over podcasts, what podcasts do you listen to? Well, I think that you and I are like, we always go to personality tests and in conversations all the time, I'm like, what's your Myers Briggs? Or what's your enneagram? Or do you know what your strengths finders or your motivating colors are? And people I like, okay, but it's just personality tests, I think are so fun, because it's a way of gamifying understanding human nature and self more.
David : Yeah. And the reality is, I mean, obviously, we're all very complex. But the personality test helps me give language to my own complexity. It helps to frame things for me, I feel like every time I take a personality test, even if they're, like, wrong on some things or I’m like, No, no, that's not true. It's still like, but is it? You know, do I bring it to friends and say, like, hey, am I this way? And, you know, we're always growing. We're always learning. I'm different today than I was five years ago. I know I’m going to be different five years from now than who I am today, and so the complexity of my own head is really fascinating. And this just helps me understand my own self better, like, I think, one that I always laugh at, it's not quite a personality test, but like, love languages, I still have no clue how I receive love, you know, and that's kind of a joke between me and my wife and, and friends too.
Mary : Well, wouldn’t you agree that like with personality assessments, yeah, not everything fits perfectly. There's no one perfect fit. But even if you read something, and it says something and you're like, Oh, no, that's not me, that reminds me of a lot of my experience with understanding myself more is actually hearing something about me or potentially about me, and that even having a reaction of saying that's not me, is just as helpful as feeling like, Oh, yeah, I do connect with that.
David : Yeah, exactly.
Mary : Think about even in the creative process when we were rebranding, I don't know what I don't like until I see something. So like, when we look at a logo, like, I always want to see it first and then I form an opinion after that. It reminds me of that, where it's like, you get the opportunity to form the opinion or not,
David : right. Yeah, it just really helps create, like a framing. And I think a starting point of just who we are, all that to say is, you know, I think Myers Briggs might be one of my favorite ones, just because it nails me pretty good every time I've taken the test, especially the ones that are coming from the actual Myers Briggs facilities, super scientific, I know someone who has done a lot of work at their campus. And I know that part of the gamifying. Or when I'm taking personality tests, I'm like, Okay, why are you asking me this question? Because I want I want the result to be this. And so you know, I try not to, but I think even subconsciously, we kind of can fall into that,
Mary : try to manipulate it a little bit. Right, who you are versus who you want to be right, exactly how you think you're perceived.
David : So they were saying how the Myers Briggs is got like this, they've been working on this algorithm for quite a while where the test can see you doing that, and will start to ask questions in a different way. So that it tricks you from tricking yourself.
Mary : Yeah, David, and I did a deep dive with Myers Briggs just a few weeks ago. And so we're excited cause in the new year, we're planning to go into like each personality test and dive really deep into each one of them. Because there's so much for all of them. But they had a really cool tool that was like sort of truing it or like making sure that yeah, it just so science-based, the Myers Briggs, and I don't remember what it was, but like, based on that score, it could identify whether they should retake that you should retake the test or not, because you were being because you were your eyes were patterned in a way that would say that maybe this is not an authentic response or an authentic, not response. It would be this was not what outcome or personality you should have gotten because your answers were maybe not as truthful or not in line.
David : Right. Yeah, that's right. They did have that score at the end. Yeah, we've hinted at that test several times. And, you know, as we unpacked it, and we met with someone to help us unpack it. You know, that's where I've said, like, Well, I thought I was an introvert for such a long time. But here this test, like off the charts, extrovert, and one of the things that again, just even helping me frame is one of the things that extroverts do, is process information out loud. Right. One of the things for me is I thought I was such an introvert because I really do cherish silent moments. And so much of that is I think about introspection and just turning the noise off just so I could be in my own head for a while. But also, as an extrovert, you process information out loud. And I'm like, Well, yeah, I process tons of information out loud. And now that I know that it's helped me change and identify behaviors, because within my team, I would process information at the beginning of the day. And by the end, I processed information with someone else at the end of the day. And because I'm processing the information, my answers might be radically different from the beginning of the day to the end of the day. And then my team members, if they get to each other, they're like, well, Dave said this one thing what no, Dave said this other thing. And there's this weird weirdness in the team. So now I know to say, Hey, I'm processing information out loud. This is what I'm thinking and then that kind of helps me qualify that. all that to say, of course, I'm having so much fun working on a podcast as an extrovert, because what are we doing? We're just processing all this information out loud with other people. So I'm like, yeah, it feels like it's a glove. Like I just had so much fun doing this.
Mary : Well, and the two things that I think about when you say that is one, they talk about how you're in or out of preference with MyersBriggs and so I think it's important to know with a lot of these personality assessments when you take it, it's trying to help you understand maybe some ways that you're responding that are learned because you're adapting to the environment or the relationship that you're in. Versus maybe your true essence or the core of what would make you feel more comfortable. So maybe you're in a place of always stretching or discomfort. And I think that's what I liked about that. One was that acknowledge that yes, maybe your testing is a little bit more middle of the road. And that's because there's some understanding or coaching that could happen, that would help you get more in preference or more in your own innate essence. And the other thing I think about though, too, is just what I try to remember about personality tests. I mean, I should start with saying that like, what I love about them is the same thing, as what I hate about them, is that personality tests, they compartmentalize everything, and there's patterns for a reason, like patterns and generalizations exist for a reason. But that's also what I hate about them. Because sometimes it does feel like okay, maybe people feel like they've been put in a box. And it doesn't always resonate. And so that can put a sour taste in their mouth, or on many occasions, personality tests have actually been used against people in the past. Um, so, you know, I just want to acknowledge that, like, my relationship with personality test is like, while I nerd out about them, and I love them, I also try to hold them lightly, because I think that they just help you form an opinion about yourself and help, you know, whether you assigned to it or not. And that might be because I was exposed to them so young, I was, as the youngest of five, my dad was really fascinated by putting all five of us plus my parents in an enneagram test when I was in middle school, or maybe even a little bit younger. So I was exposed to them immediately. And it was like, you know, I don't know, a weird family exercise, family bonding exercise. But it was the first time that I was like, Oh, that's fascinating. Like, even at that age, I was learning that, like, there could be patterns that you could understand, and that I could understand my siblings more. And sometimes I wonder if that experience like really made me as passionate about them as I am.
David : Right. Yeah, like because you were asking questions at such a young age, it became almost immediately a part of a thought pattern that you learned young to explore.
Mary : Yeah. And you know, when you're that young, and you hear something like Oh, your sister Grace is the peacemaker. And you're like, man, she is such a peacemaker. She was always, you know, for me probably as a young kid, the way I could translate what that meant was, Oh, yeah, she was always breaking up fights, she was always the one that didn't want us to, like be in wrestling, or whatever, you know. So I like when you hear something that young and then it is a truth to you. Like, I think it really did embed in me that there's some power behind personality tests, and that I could understand myself and how I'm relating with more even at such a young age.
David : Well, I kind of brought up the out of preference. So Mary mentioned that in January we're going to plan into a deeper dive of several different personality tests. And what's funny for me is my personality and Myers Briggs is very much like, last minute decision making, you know, don't ask me what I want for dinner tomorrow night. I haven't even had dinner tonight. So how am I supposed to answer that question? But because I lead so many teams, like, I'm the one that I think I texted yesterday, like, Hey, I just finished the rest of the year, I think these are the topics that we're doing. And you can see how it matches seasonality. And that has become a learned preference. It's out of my style. But it's become a learned preference, because everyone else around me processes way in advance. And so now I've kind of learned that, like, here's what planning in the future can look and feel like, because I have led so many teams throughout my whole life. It really has become something that I prefer. And so it is interesting, that
Mary : or also a survival tool. I mean, I feel like it's like you're maybe one of the things that you do have to sit in a space that is uncomfortable, but you've had such a good response to it. And you know that you're doing something for other people that it allows you to be out of preference.
David : Right? Yeah. So yeah, it allows me to thrive a little bit more
Mary : because when you did that, obviously the planner in me was like, so stoked. So then you get a lot of feedback, like, Yes, thank you. And that's life giving. And now I can visualize and understand what's to come. And so you soften some anxieties for me. And I'm sure that that's like, probably just as rewarding to you then. And,
David : Yeah, so by lowering your anxiety, I mean, you and I being a team for this podcast by lowering your anxiety it automatically lowers some of mine. Yeah. So it's still a positive for me. So this is going to be just an overview. We have someone, Kirsten Moorefield is going to be a guest on an interview, the second half of this episode, and we'll tell you more about her. But she's got an amazing company that has all of these personality tests on the platform. And it's really just a cool format, but has become an expert in a lot of the personality test as a whole. I want to just talk through, like you mentioned, the downside and how personality tests can be used against you. So I want to come back to that. But to me, there are really a lot of these upsides for the third place, you know that why are we talking about this. And the third place? Well, we want to make sure that we're creating these safe places for dialogue, we're wanting to create safe places for team, for all these things. And I think foundationally there's so many upsides to learning who you are, so that you can not only create a safe place for others, but by learning who you are, you're also creating that safe place for you. So therefore, it's inviting others in. So I'd love to just break down a little bit more like how first how these can all be really good for just team and conversation. And then we can I want to touch on that downside as well. So I think for many in business and leadership, one of the best tests that's out there is the DISC assessment. Because it does do that personality style. But then it maps everybody on top of each other so you can see where your style fits, where somebody else's styles fit, and how you give and receive communication and vice versa. And one of the things I like about that test? Well, the first time I did that with a team of people was, you know, to identify one, there were no right or wrong answers, right. So everyone falls into the different categories. But it also helped, like for me see where gaps might be? You know, so one, no one personality type is better than the other. But I do think it did show that having multiple of or if everybody was in one of the letters like if everyone was D in dominance in the dominance category, that would probably be really bad as a team and cause a lot of dysfunction.
Mary : Yeah, I think that what we're saying here is that really it comes down to it's not just balance, because I feel like you want balance, but really depends on the work environment or the industry you're in. So you might need to be what would be considered out of balance, if you had, you know, a piece of the pie that was heavily weighted in one area that might be necessary, if you're in tech, you might really need to have more weight in one area. Whereas if you're in customer service, you may need something else or if you're in hospitality or healthcare. So, to me, it's just about sort of aligning the industry needs or the goals of what you're trying to accomplish with the personalities or the strengths, natural strengths of those that are serving that mission. And like, I think that something that I love about personality tests, or that I also tried to bring to the table is that we're all of it. So anytime you take a test, there's a piece of you that exists within all of the pie. And you probably lie more heavily in something, but you know, certain things come out of you or you present in certain ways depending on the exchange in the environment on the trigger, the conflict, the relationship. So I always like to try to also bring in that yeah, well, yes, you may be a D or an S or C when we're talking about a desk, or you could be a six or nine of the enneagram or an IRE. I think that I always like to also mention that different environments or different things can bring all parts of the spectrum out of you because we are like we started with we're complex beings and we're all of it.
David : Right. And you could have someone that has the same score of over multiple tests as me, for example, but one thing that tests don't really show is kind of what you're saying is that environment like, my environment from my childhood affects how I respond in different environments. I might be a personality type in a work environment, but be somewhat different in my home environment, even now. So we're different kinds of work. Like, I mean, I'm on multiple teams with lots of different topics, and I'm sure different pieces of my personality come out in multiple ways over the spectrum.
Mary : Yep. Yeah. And then I think that, you know, another layer to just talking about leadership and using these as a tool is that not only does it give you a framework for yourself, I mean, we first connected on servant leadership. So really like, diving into that leadership comes from, you know, this like holistic perspective, or like what do you call it you the 360? Is that what you always say?
David : Yeah, like I talk about leadership in this 360 perspective. And when most people think of leadership, they think of it as a pyramid, like you kind of keep earning your way up. And the higher up, you are, right. So top down leadership, where and then servant leadership is flipping that upside down. I like that an awful lot better.
Mary : Yeah, yes. Anyway, your team can train, be your leader, your staff member, quote, unquote, could be just as strong of a leader, as the manager or the CEO to each other. If you think of it in more of like a, I don't know, the 360 way,
David : yeah, so you can lead up to the people above you, you can lead down, you can lead peer wise, and when I think of leadership, it is something that everyone can be, you know, like, what I like about this idea of servant leadership, and even just the more positive way that these like, to me, these tests, shine in a servant leadership model. That's what they're designed to do that, a leader can understand who they are, they can better who they are. And they can understand and help guide growth for everybody that they are surrounded by. So it's very much a servant leader. And I think that that's where these tools shine the best. And so the 360 leader is like, you know, one of the things that you can do with all these tests and who you are, bottom line is, we can't control what anybody else does. We can't control how they respond, we can only control how we respond. So what is that first, that's being a self leader. So, you know, in any situation, just giving yourself the tools to lead who you are, is kind of a version of 360 leadership as well.
Mary : Yeah, I mean, from my experience, I've led teams as small as five people and as big as 130 people when I was in my early 20s, to which was kind of intense. But at the same time, my sweet spot was when I was leading a team of 30 people. And I used tools like this, to help exhibit my process and understand myself more. And it was almost like, just because you're on a pedestal or like, not a pedestal, but you're in the spotlight as leaders, and you have to take a lot of the blame or the flack for things because that's part of the tall order in showing them that I was, I'm on the same level as you, I am human, I am understanding myself minute by minute, but I'm trying to understand myself more, then that just was like it became a contagious response to things where I was able to be humbled, I was able to do, it can be as simple as when you're in customer service, like one of the practices that I would do to create a sense of empathy, because I think personality tools are trying to ultimately just help you empathize with people so that you can have a better way to communicate and connect with people in when I was running a coffee and juice bar like I would just simply have even though I knew certain people were very strong openers, because they were morning people are very strong closers. Because they were night people, I would always put in a little bit of discomfort where I would make them do an open or I would make them do a close whatever was on the other end of their preference or spectrum, just so they could empathize with and then that would create such a deeper connection because they could understand and a lot of, you know this is not rocket science. But it does take you understanding yourself in order to then understand others try to lead in the way that you lean into where their gifts and their innate gifts are and like what they have to offer, help them understand what they have to offer. And then also sort of push them to explore like, Where's your edge?
David : I like that an awful lot because because it does push you into an area like that you could grow in and Cuz you know, we can always grow, we can always, like I talked about how I'm a visionary all the time, it doesn't mean I shouldn't be good at details a little bit like, you know, it shouldn't be that I never do them. So it helps push me to by doing a detail driven job, it does help push me into still growing as a person. But also, boy, when I do that, like, it just kind of keeps me in check, because the people that do the details around me, I really appreciate the job that they do that much more
Mary : isn't like a feeling of gratitude, like one of the best feelings in the body. Like I think that, um, if this if tools like this, or leading in this way gets you to feelings of like appreciation or gratitude more frequently than I think, to me that in itself is all I would hope for anyone.
David : Yeah. Well, I mean, truthfully, like, I think that is the third place. Right? It's, here's who I am, here's who you are. And I'm really grateful for you, and that we're different. And that's that middle ground.
Mary : Yeah, even if you drive me insane, like, and I think that what's cool about the interview that we do, is that she even touches on that, but it just allows you to be like, oh, there's a place for you. And there's a place for me and we don't have to be the same. And that being the same, sharing the same perspective presenting in the same way operating the same way. Like that would be a boring world if we were all the same. So it's just like going back to like, wait, like, there's beauty in difference and different perspectives and different opinions. And that really is exactly what you said it's the gray space. It's the in between?
David : Well, and I think that you can hear our excitement of how, when these are used well. So how have they been used poorly? Have you ever experienced these tests being used poorly, you brought it up how they can be used in this negative?
Mary : Well, I've never used them as a tool against anyone as a leader. And while the personality tests like, there wasn't an actual exchange of me taking a personality test, and then that being used against me, it was more that in my process or journey of self awareness. I thought that by sharing transparently, with a leader about maybe something that I was going through or the way that I operate, like I was basically saying, Hey, this is like something, this is how I work. Can you meet me where I'm at, that was used against me, it ended up being where I had exchanges with a leader where it was used in, I think that these can be like humor inducing, because you're supposed to be able to laugh at yourself. But it wasn't used in that way. It was more so used in a way of like, Oh, well, Mary's like this. So we shouldn't do that. And also, it was in a public format to where it was in big team meetings. And this was happening repeatedly, with a lot of people. And so there has been some discomfort for me in the past where I've, being someone that likes to be very honest and upfront about Okay, this is my edge, I need you to know that. I thought that by being vulnerable and sharing that edge, it would not be something that would come up repeatedly, it would more like okay, I'm asking you to meet me where I'm at. And I need you to be my leader right now. And I need you to support me in this process. So that was really uncomfortable for me. And it ultimately ended up being that I was meeting that edge too frequently. And it was also being named in a negative light so frequently that I no longer work there. Yeah. But that wasn't fun. And I've heard of way worse stories where people either take a personality test in the hiring process, and then they're not hired for that job as a result of it. Which mind you I think that part of the tools are trying to align you with your strengths, but that there's a fine line. And I want to acknowledge that if you are someone that was on the receiving end of a personality test that was used against you, I can relate and I feel for you and that is not the intention of these whatsoever,
David : right. Yeah, I think that I heard a couple things that it would be first displayed in a public format like I mean, the reality is the personality test will show your strengths and your weaknesses. So it will kind of expose all your buttons that aren't good.
Mary : And that there's a level of permission that needs to be given when you're doing something that's vulnerable like that. It's not just divulged to everyone there needs to be, you know, really, if it's done right, then it should be something that the person is given consent.
David : Yeah, again, it's that like safety we talk about all the time, the third place is safety driven first. And there is that fine line, like if I were trying to get a job or get a contract that required me to be detail oriented? I mean, I need to know that I'm not a good fit for that job, too. So, that's important to come out in that whole process. But it really is the space that requires dialogue. And I think what we said a moment ago, like, I really do think that these tests are designed to be taken especially for teams, designed to be taken in a servant leadership manner, where they're respected, or that we realized that we are touching on private matters, that do go a little bit deeper than and there's good things about going deep, but there's negative things about going deep.
Mary : And there's so much room for, like, translation too
David : Right? Like, they’re not 100% accurate.
Mary : Well, yeah, they're not 100% accurate. But also, you could read a sentence, you know, Mary is a hyper relational, I don't know, so then does that mean, I can't work independently? I think that, by statements being made, everyone has their own lens. So then that's why it's nice to have the support of an expert if you're really going to do this, especially in a team format. But if it's just in a fun format, where it's like you and your partner that want to understand because you're having conflict over things, or it's just you and your friends, like then I feel like their safety just by nature there. But maybe in the workplace, it's a little bit more sensitive, and important to have someone that can help translate with the intention behind statements and conclusions.
David : Yeah, and like you said, like those relationships that you already have permission with essentially was where they shine, friendships, significant other, whatever. Well, like I said, I mean, you and I, our friendship started here. We've been, I still just love them every time there's a new one out and like, I admit that Myers Briggs is probably my favorite. It's probably because it was the first one I took. It was in college, and my friend was a counselor, and she was practicing giving these tests. So you know, but anyway, but I think that they can be great to learn who you are, ultimately. And they can really deepen some close relationships that are without question already in that safe place.
Mary : yeah, since you shared your favorite, my favorite is what's called Five element theory. And I'm sure many people have never heard of it. But it comes from traditional Chinese medicine, most commonly related to five element acupuncture. But I took my favorite class of my entire undergraduate in psychology was five element theory. And it's basically relating each of us and how we operate and depending on the environment to different elements. And that's one of my favorites and talk about nerd out about. We'll go there, for sure. David hears me talk about it 24/7
David : Well, yeah, I was gonna say. So this is, it's a long teaser. But let's definitely plan to take that one apart in January. Well, so super fun.
Mary : 2021
David : Yes, every meme that I see right now is “at 11:59 PM on 2020, we'll all take a shot and then never speak of 2020 again.” So yeah, well, in preparation for a great 2021 maybe everybody can go take a test. Kristen Moorefield again is who is going to be our guest. Her organization is cloverleaf.me. You can go there, sign up, and take the 16 types, which is similar to Myers Briggs, or the enneagram for free and they're good tests. So that's a trusted resource. Take a test, get an assessment, have fun with it, to bring it to your friends and learn a little bit about who you know, knowing that we're adaptive and that we're always just learning and growing and these can be really good.
Mary : Yeah, I totally encourage you to explore taking those two tests. And if you also nerd out about it, raise your hand and send a note because we could talk about it any time. Something that I actually heard during a yoga practice the other day that sort of sits with me is that personality tests, you know, like we said, it helps you be adaptive and aware. I've always felt like maybe being adaptive was a little bit of a negative thing. And I heard this thing, “modifying is a form of wisdom and not weakness.” It just makes me think that, I know, I want to say it, again, modifying is a form of wisdom and not a weakness. My hope is that tools like this that help you meet your edge and modify or adapt. Like, you can see that's coming from a place of strength rather than the opposite.
David : Yea, that's really good. And if any way, these tests, these conversations and these dialogues like the goal, be the boldest version of yourself, because if you can do that, talk about bringing peace in the world, if everyone was just themselves, we all have these gifts, if we all brought our gifts and our full presence to the world, man, that's a beautiful place that that sounds like and feels like utopia to me.
Mary : So much for us being light for one episode.
David : Oh, well, we had a chord in there.
Mary : Leave it to us to go back there. I love it. It's so true, though.
David : Well, thanks for listening, everybody. check back in with us tomorrow and we'll share our interview with Kirsten.
Mary : Be well
