Ep 14 - Politics is a GOOD Word
We just days away from Election Day, and we are in a hyper season of US vs THEM thinking. Is this really how politics is supposed to be??? Is there a better way? - to disagree, to wrestle with big issues, to live all together as Americans??
How can we embrace the messy, middle grey as a place of hope and healing as we walk through this season? CAN we have healthy disagreements with family and friends? How can we simply just get through the coming weeks?
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TRANSCRIPT:
Various voices saying how they feel about the word “politics” : When I hear the word politics, it makes me feel conflicted. On one hand, I'm so grateful to live in a representative democracy. And I hope that more and more people in our country are able to make their voices heard at the national, state and local level. On the other hand, I feel like public discourse about politics can be really negative and really polarizing. And it turns me off. So I have mixed feelings about politics.
When I hear the word politics, I feel sad, apathetic. rage.
When I hear the word politics, it makes me feel betrayed. Because politicians are supposed to represent the people and work for the people and are paid by the people. And I think that most politicians have forgotten that and have betrayed the people in favor of big corporations and industries and the game that is politics.
When I hear the word politics, I feel divided. And then, like, I need to find a creative way to be able to discuss what unquote politics, friends, family, strangers, so that they feel comfortable, they know their voices heard, respected, and that their views are important, regardless of which side of the fence they fall on.
When I hear the word politics, it makes me feel discouraged. discouraged, because I've lost a lot of trust in our politicians. I don't know what their motives are anymore. And I don't have a lot of faith that there will be unity between the two parties anytime soon.
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place for us.
David : It is an invitation to the grey space. A space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : We invite you in to the third place.
David : Hello, everyone. Welcome to the third place podcast.
Mary : Welcome friends.
David : Last episode, we talked about how to have difficult conversations. So we thought we'd lighten it up a little bit and talk about politics.
Mary : No, I didn't know where you were going. Oh, man that you caught me off. That's hilarious. That's a David joke right there. Yeah, politics. Whoo.
David : Right. And you know, the thing that really, I don't know funnies not exactly the right word. But maybe the irony of today in our episode, is I'm really looking forward to this talk. Like, I think politics causes us so much tension for so many people. And, you know, we were just talking right before we got on the record how stressful is right now. It's like, it's all the things I'm trying to wear. We've just hired a couple new team members, we're getting ready to move our business and have meetings for that I have all these new accounts that we've been having meetings with, I still have a one and three year old. And every morning I wake up and I'm tired before the day even begins and just like all the stresses and just now I'm like, Oh, right. And I'm, I have all this tension. Like just as a nation. We're just carrying so much tension right now around politics.
Mary : Mm hm. David knows that I do not share the same sentiment around looking forward to this episode. But a lot of that comes with that. My insecurities come up like our conversation that we had around insecurity in a previous episode. The way that I approach politics always come comes from intuition. And so I get insecure because I tend to actually completely avoid the news I end so I feel like I'm under educated and I feel like it's a topic that of all, it's like everyone is being asked to have a strong opinion in one way or another. And I so often feel like my opinion flip flops, or it's by the moment, or it's just purely a gut response to something. And that has always made me feel like I'm having conversations around politics that I'm not coming, prepared to, to sit on one side or the other. And that's why I love the third place and why it's the work that we like to do is because so much of my truth really does lie in that in between, and I. And while some think that I come off as fair weather for me, I just feel like I can absorb so many perspectives. And I lead with empathy, and, and usually too much information just confuses me more. Hmm.
David : Yeah, I think that I would say I'm definitely finding myself more engaged over this past five years. And it's been out of frustration. And kind of like the beautifully angry, like, I'd find myself becoming angry. And therefore, that's, for me, something that triggers more engagement, not less. Although, I would say to though, that it's not that I was ever disengaged. In politics, it's just, I'm just much more engaged. But there is something like, I think there's a beauty and trying to avoid the news. There's a beauty like, that's a rest type boundary. And I know for like productivity blogs, I've read in the past these, they say, like, don't read the news first thing in the morning, and right now, I'm definitely not doing that. So there's some good that is in that space is just where I find myself is, you know, through coffee, coffee is just grown around the world, right. And that work has brought me more and more into lots of different cultures, and how we all approach coffee, how we all drink coffee, how we all consume coffee, and so many cultures do it differently. And because it's such a global culture, drink, and there's so many different approaches to it, it also brings me into some conversations a little bit more on the race, and minority issues that we're dealing with, right in our country. And I, there's not really, it's not a comfortable thing for me to acknowledge. But sometimes disengagement is a subtle form of privilege. Like I've been able to be disengaged. because, frankly, my life has not looked all that much different. No matter which party is in control. If the President's a Democrat, or a Republican, or the Congress or whatever. Overall, my life is grown, my business has grown right life has gotten better and better and better. And I mean, I don't know how else to say it. But over the last four years, especially if you're a minority, your life has not gotten better, you know, make America great, again, is not a phrase that they can connect with, because it's not something that's great. And, and so part of my engagement is also as I've continued to be waking up to points of privilege in my life. That's part of why I find myself being engaged some right now. And I'm, I do want to clarify, like, I'm not trying to knock anybody else down this engaged, or if you're thinking of voting for a third party, I'm not trying to criticize that. But just as I've kind of been on my journey, I'm seeing all these super subtle versions of privilege that keep creeping up, and I'm trying to figure out, you know, what do I do about it? Mm hmm.
Mary : Yeah, I mean, even just to go back to the news conversation, I may not watch, you know, conventional news, but at in the world that we're in now, I'm getting news fed to me in every angle, regardless so and it's serving what I like on ticked up even, like, it's crazy how it's that there is a lot that's still funneling towards, towards me regardless. And to me, it's not that I don't even want to be disengaged, because I do vote. And I see the importance in that. I don't know why I see the importance. Like really, when I think about it, I'm like, I just like I remember when I turned 18 it was just like there to me, there was no like, other option. And I'd love to unpack that at some point some day, another time with you. But like, it is funny how that just to me felt like oh, this is just what we should do. And so I do, I do engage in it in that way. And you know, I, I love how we're talking about that politics is a good word. And I think that first came up when you and I started to talk about like, what is politics like what's the actual founding intention behind politics, what is the word even mean? And can we go back to that foundation and reframe it a little bit in this time just to give a little bit of ease and something that's clearly so uncomfortable for many, including myself.
David : Right? Yeah, without question today. I mean, most people that I engage with, like, if you bring up the word politics, it's not something that stirs up warm and fuzzies inside.
Mary : A lot of, you know, what we heard is a lot of lost trust
David : Yeah. Right. So it's become this bad word. And I do think that it is so important to get back to the root. I did some research to prepare. And the word comes from a Latin word, polis, which is the word for city. And so politics is just a large group of people learning how to live together. And I think that that's one of the things I find so frustrating is like it has become this bad word, but it's not supposed to be and politics is everywhere. And when it works really well, we don't see it. Politics is in our jobs. Like, what does it you know, that's why we have HR. People in our company, right? It's figuring out what working together looks like. It's in our social circles or communities, religious organizations, it's even in our families like Beth and I, at the beginning of the marriage, she says, I don't like taking out trash. I don't ever want to take out the trash, I will clean the bathroom. If you take out the trash. I'm like, Okay, guys. So that's politics working. So, you know, it's figuring out how to do this together. And, and there's, again, politics in its purest form is exactly the third place. Yeah, it's coming together with different perspectives, different needs, and making collective decisions that empower everybody involved.
Mary : Well, what's what I hear you saying no to is when you said that politics, you know, city, and what was it together people? So it's like, to meet all you're saying, it's just how we relate with each other how we connect, and I think that right now, most people would feel like relationship and connection is completely absent in the conversation around politics, or not completely absent, but definitely a pain point. And so like, it's just like, how can we reconnect and get things in a more fluid way?
David : Right? Yeah, not completely absent, it is actually destroying relationships or hurting relationships. So the opposite of absent? So, I think that for me, like, it's always like, how do we deconstruct all this and at the purest form, so that's why the word in its purest form, I think, is really good. Learning how to live together is really good. And I think where we see politics work really well is when it is in the background. When we turn on our faucet, and we get clean drinking water, that's a version of politics. When we drive over bridges. Our political system is what's designed to make sure those bridges are being tested on a regular basis that they're safe, and that they're maintained. And we don't even see the bridges anymore. You know, all the bridges that we drive over every day, are functioning. And it's because politics is working. So right now, all the things that we there's so much that isn't working. And that's why I think politics is really just so tense. But to take that word, I think one of the other things that I find personally frustrating is, so many words are just completely being thrown around right now that I think they've lost their meaning. Like You I grew up conservative, and I'm finding myself on the liberal side of many issues today, although there, there's a value in both, right? I think that that's a thing that makes me sad is we've not we've lost that. But where's like, Oh, well, you're just a socialist keep being thrown around. And I'm like, Do you even know? Do we even know what that means anymore? Because the reality is, our system is capitalist, but it is also a blend of socialism, already, like Social Security is taking care of our elderly. And it's a collective group of people through the government to make sure that we have things when we get older. Right. So it's already a blend of social issues. And I was listening to another podcast that specializes in politics, and they were referring to the history of social security and even then, the conservative groups that were against social security as we're saying, Oh, this socialism, this is socialism. Well, here we are, so many years later that we don't think of social security as a version of socialism, but it's a blend of the two.
Mary : I think it's the It goes back to that you can be both. And that's a lot of my frustration with it is just like what I said in the beginning. It's like, I feel like, especially when it comes to the topic of politics, we're being asked to be one or the other when there's just such a spectrum. And, you know, David knows, I've been talking about brene browns, braving the wilderness book for the last couple weeks, like obsessively every day. It just touches on so much of this, and I encourage all of you to listen to it's really short audio book, but she talks about, like, it's just you can hear something about one side of a topic or have a perspective. And it can be true to you. But also the opposite can represent true to you as well. Like, one of the examples she brought up was like, okay, maybe a typical stereotype of a Republican, maybe that they are very greedy. I don't know, I don't think that's exactly what she said. But then you have this example of someone that, you know, that is republican and exudes the total opposite. So it's like, it's just there's so many exceptions to this desire to try to make it so polarized and divisive, when in actuality, what if we could try and revisit the spectrum? And I think that's really hard and a two party system.
David : Right. Right. Well, and that that is the thing, right? And again, we're going back to the root ideas of what the third place is, is you're bringing your perspective a and I bring my perspective, and they both have value. Right? So
Mary : what was that? What was that park story?
David : Oh, yeah. I will, I was having a conversation around politics. You know, conversation, it was an argument. And it was about politics, and it was about COVID. And it was just about, like, you know, all the things and they boiled up. And, you know, and a lot of the conservative perspective is limited government, like, how do we get this thing to be less and less and less? And there's definitely lots of me that agrees with some of those ideas, like, at some point, like, let me do what I want to do, use the money that I've worked for, so that I can be a blessing to others. That's definitely, you know, I think, I know that that's part of the perspective for sure of the person I was having the argument with. So you know, I just want the government out of my life. But to me, there was some an irony is, there's only so much less you can do at some point, we do need government for some things. And to me, the irony of that particular moment in time in that argument was we were in a city park, which was built when I was a kid, and someone's land was purchased by a collective pool of people that people voted for. And maybe someone maybe like, I don't know, how many homes were needed to make this park. It was kind of in a rural area, but there was definitely some land that was purchased in homes that were required. Maybe nine out of the 10 homes said yes, but there might have been one that said no, there was some negotiation, and they were some version of force to make this park happen, then now today, the park is gorgeous, and tons of people use it. But that's politics. Like that's how it works. And, you know, if there was someone that's home had to be purchasing, they didn't want to move. I don't know. I don't know what emotions I have for that. Like, obviously, there's some sadness and frustration in that story, if that were the case, but the collective whole is definitely benefiting because the government did something for the people.
Mary : Do you think that most people because I think that I'm one of them that when we're talking about this, I just feel like I don't even make the connection to so much of how I operate in the world to being a result of politics. And so that's what like, I feel like is such a gift to this conversation for me even was when you acknowledge that. But just also that does feel like privilege, like you're just operating and you don't even slow down to take note of why we can be so efficient in the way that we lead our lives. I just wouldn't have even made that connection. And I think that that to me does feel like a breath of fresh air where it's like, oh, cool like that. That feels like something that I would want to lean in more especially in my backyard. I mean, I connect to it the most having more to natural foods for a dozen years. I remember always feeling like the organic food movement was politics right there. Right and it was, we would say you know, you're voting with your dollars like do you want to spend money on healthcare later? Or do you want to spend money on your body? Now, by choosing an end, you know, when there's more demand for organic, then there will be more organic farmers. And so like, that was something that I felt like I could really connect within and was, and still is, I vote with my dollars in regards to organic foods and just slow foods, good foods, local foods as a whole.
David : Right? That's a great, a great example, as well of what politics is thank you for bringing that up that like that label comes from an organization, right, organic comes from something
Mary : and that's like, sort of, I'd say the consumer just trust that right,
David : right. So where's that trust come from? You know, that FDA does do work to just make sure food is healthy. Now we have maybe different definitions and frustrations like I wish there was stricter laws, right? Like, what one of the things that we talk, we give coffee roasting tours every Saturday morning, and occasionally I'll lead one or I'll lead a group of people at the roastery. And a common question that we'll ask is like, Hey, is your coffee fairtrade certified? Or is it organic certified, and some of our coffees are, but our primary direct trade relationship is not. And I don't want it to be. Because those certifications cost money. And I know the farmer, I've been to the farm, I know she uses organic practices. So basically, now I'm asking our consumers to trust me to be that certification check. But the reason why I don't want that certification to happen is those things cost money. And the projects that we're working on right now are how do we help build a school? What she already has done? The next project? How do we build a computer lab? Well, before I can do that, I need to build solar panels. So I do not want the money to go to a certification. I want it to go to solar panels. So that's a driving factor. But again, there's has to be some trust built to even get there. But the other component of that, and this is really just so frustrating. In our labeling laws are just so loose, to be certified organic on the global stage, the product only requires that to get that label only 20% of the product is certified fair trade. Now, hopefully it's 100%. But it's the global standard is 20%. And unfortunately, it gets worse because in the US we always change that make our own rules to get that label on the side of a bag in the US is only 10%. So us, as the consumer assume that that label means 100% of that product. Yeah, has been fairly traded. Right. And again, hopefully it has been, but it only is required that 10% minimum has been fairly traded. And that's why the relationship is so important in the coffee sector. And that's why yeah, I don't put a lot of weight into it. Like, same thing, Colombian coffee, only 10% has to be Colombian coffee for it to have a label that says Colombian coffee. And if it does, say Colombian coffee, it's very likely that 10% is from Colombia, and 90% is from other parts of the world, Vietnam probably, if it says 100%, Colombian, then it is 100% Colombia, but it has to say it specifically 100%, Colombian, but again, I maybe know too much, even that's because the farm that we work with in Honduras, the low grade quality coffee gets shipped to Colombia, so that it can be exported from Colombia and then be considered Colombian coffee. So how am I setup is all that. So that's why I'm like, come on politics step up, like you're the one that's supposed to make sure all this is working, and that the labels and the products that we buy is actually what we think we're buying.
Mary : Right, right. Yeah, I mean, it makes me think of a lot of the emerging brands that I've worked with in natural foods and just how oftentimes the consumer like if they if it says organic on it, like we were talking about, then that product is deemed holy, right? when in actuality there are certain things where it's like, maybe you didn't know the orange juice, like when they started to say not from concentrate, people were like this is from concentrate, I didn't even know that. And that sort of approach is taken across so many different categories of food that the consumer would never even know. But I want small little brands to make it. And if they can't put everything on their label, then I also love that and I and I can see that the FDA wouldn't be able to regulate every single label going out if there is some desire to also push small brands, but for the most part, I'd say small brands have had a tough go at it. So I don't know the answer to it. have what you just said, and I, you know, I'm familiar with that pain point too. And I think that hopefully someone listening even just got to learn a little bit and that that'd be my hope for that side.
David : And that's I think, again, like, so that's a problem. And I wish we could figure out how to address it. And in order to do that we need politics to step up, right? Yeah. So for me, I think what's important about this episode is I just think it's so important to reframe politics as a good word, like the title says, and I think one of the other truths, that is really grounding me in this conversation that I just think is so so important is, and I don't, it's definitely a journey to get there. And I don't know how to get there, and we just keep fighting the fight. But can we get back to a place where, or, or maybe not back to? Can we get to a place where we can be empathetic and realize then that when one of us hurts when any one of us hurts, we all hurt?
Mary : Yeah. And I think you're, what you're talking about is, you know, humanizing. And again, and even. Just how can we, how can we perceive those in politics or those that disagree with us at the Thanksgiving dinner table, or those, whatever it may be, whatever could trigger you or our perception, perception of this hackley remember that everyone is is human, and that those that have been raised in different ways to us and have different levels of privilege or lack thereof. It really just comes down to that, you know, the word politics was like about relationships and connecting with humans. And I like to think of it in a much a global, if not universal, very spiritual perspective. That's my, that's my approach. And I really do believe that when one of us hurts, we all hurt.
David : That humanizing conversation, I think is, is so critical. I've been trying to think through how I want to talk like, Okay, so we have this podcast, it's about, Hey, bring your perspective, bring my perspective, the middle ground is safe to do so. And so I'm like, even in this episode, but I do not approve of our president's behavior. I don't approve of Donald Trump. And, and I'm like, but that's not the third place. Is it? Right, like, because there are people that are clearly for that and there. And I think the key is like, for me, as I've, the humanizing helps me think through that, because while I'm not a fan of his policies and his behaviors, it is important to recognize the humaneness like, I don't think I don't want to call him a name. And I think that that's also why I'm so frustrated. I think it's okay for me to say out loud on a podcast, it's about finding the common ground to say, I'm not a fan of his because that's the behavior that he has, is so bully. When if someone disagrees with him, they just get called a name. And so the behavior of Donald Trump in the space of the third place, I think it's okay to be frustrated.
Mary : Yeah, I think I just take the behavior. I mean, people keep saying, you know, last election, and then now this election, like choosing the lesser of the two evils, right. And I mean, the presidential debate is a perfect example of this where I could not watch it, because I was so sickened by how dehumanizing they were to each other. Right. So and, you know, you could say whatever, but like, when you go back to it, I'm like, so if I don't agree with the way that Trump's dehumanizing behavior, then I also don't agree with Biden's dehumanizing. Exactly. So it's like, what if we can, if you don't agree with that from one side, then I challenge you to not agree with that same behavior on the other side, and to be able to acknowledge that and instead of just having to be right and steadfast and how can we just be kinder to one another? And I think that that's why I have a hard time with, you know, our current president is because I feel like a lot of people I mean, our interview that we have after this with David is going to touch on so much. And it's amazing. I can't wait for everyone to hear next week's but he talks about just like that, it just comes back to like, just being good to one another. And I think that it could be as simple as that. And a lot of people are voting for just that not even on the policies or anything. A lot of people are voting for one different reason. I think mine really is about human behavior. Right? Yeah. And so, you know, to talk about how can you have humanizing conversations with those that are opposing to you. I go back to the beginningners mind and I go back to how can we have curious conversations? How can we, instead of especially me something I'm working on instead of feeling like a have to have an opinion that's something? What if I can just sit and be curious and ask for more on that person's opinion and not hold it to be a threat or intimidating or anything and not that I have to make it my own. But instead that I could just come from a place of like, I just, I'd love to hear more. And I'd love to explore more of that. That ain't easy.
David : Right? Yeah. And I think that last week's interview with the white women even was a step in that right, I learned so much about race that I didn't know. And I've been, I have been able to form so many more relationships with people that don't look like me over the last several years. So I see, personal progress has been hard. And it's that curious mind is a great way to say it. I've been curious. But even then, like, last week's interview, I still was able to learn so much and so many different perspectives. And, you know, I think what Misasha said that, I just want my kids to be able to walk out and know that they're going to come back home and not get hurt because of the way that they look. And I'm like, I don't know what that feeling feels like. And I will never know what that feeling feels like. But it's really helpful for a person that we interviewed to say that out loud. Because it's like, you can hear it like, yeah, you say that. But it was someone that we quickly could call a friend to say that that's a fear that she has, and I've never had to have that feeling before.
Mary : Mm hmm. I tend to take the perspective too that I like I trust you before I don't, and I think a little bit of that would serve maybe all of us is just that. I don't know, just seeing people is innately good. And that maybe if that became even if it was like just a taste of that truth that we would make decisions with that in mind. And that just sounds like peace giving to me.
David : Yeah. Well, and trust. I mean, it's definitely a boundary thing, right? You know, your trust can be hurt and broken. But I think trust is what begins to help us be allies with one another. And maybe we can just end here and just kind of rest with that, you know, what does it look like to truly be allies for people? You know, even if we disagree, we're still in this together, I think, you know, what, historically has been with politics. And you see it like with john mccain's death, a couple years ago, people from both sides came together. And while they disagreed on policy, everyone was for making America better, right. And I think, like, we can disagree with policy, we can disagree with things, but we are all on the same page. So I actually found this quote that I wanted to share. It was from Abraham Lincoln when he accepted his presidency, and it's right before the Civil War. So he's trying to hold everything together. But he said, “We are not enemies. But friends, we must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The Mystic cores of memory will swell when again touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our nature.” you know? I mean, again, like I have never thought about what you said. But even that sentence and what you said earlier, this is really spiritual, and we're all just so connected. And they the angels within us win
Mary : Well, I'm glad that this conversation is over. Thank you for giving me the safe space to be able to have a conversation about something that makes me feel so uncomfortable. So thank you, David, and thank you everyone for listening and I hope that you too have a friend or an ally or a family member that you can be as raw and authentic with as well. Be well
