Ep 06 - Beautifully Angry
Anger, often viewed as a negative emotion, is a response that comes from within. Oftentimes, we are misled to think that anger is something that happens to us, not something that happens within us. In “Beautifully Angry” we invite you in to explore how anger can be a powerful energy that we can tap into, and how it can transform into something so powerful and beautiful, and to truly be used as a catalyst for change.
*Interview with Don McLaughlin begins at 35:58
TRANSCRIPT:
Mary : We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David : It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through
Both :challenging, empowering and engaging dialogue.
Mary : You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self, equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David : Thank you for listening.
Mary : We invite you into the third place.
David : Well, hello, everyone. Happy Tuesday.
Mary : Happy Tuesday, friends.
David : This is a first for us. Mary and I are in the same room.
Mary We're six feet apart, though.
David : So we're so so close, but not
Mary : that close. Yeah, David came from Ohio to Colorado. And we're excited because it's one of the first times we get to have a conversation and record a podcast beside each other. So we both are laughing because we're like, what are we doing? This feels so weird, but yet so familiar all at the same time.
David : Right? It was tempting to just go ahead and login to zoom, though. Yeah.
Mary : Let's just do it. Let's start over.
David : So I'm really excited about this episode. This was one that we have been planning for a few months and talked through and really was sparked by a lot of the racial tensions that were happening just a couple months ago, and are still happening. We wanted to break down the passion and power of what anger is, when we think about being angry, we think so quickly about more of a negative connotation towards anger. And I don't know if you're like me, I was just moved by how much positivity has come from a culture and a nation really angry at things right now. And it seems like, while it's sad that things had to get to that point, the anger, in many ways has been able to be turned into a lot of positive responses.
Mary : Yeah, I think that we've both decided that anger can be a catalyst for change. And so we were excited because this is the first time we're going to actually interview someone that we think and has a story to share that relates to how anger and how that internal fire can actually mold and weld and create something. So this is our attempt at breaking down an emotion that has a bad connotation or a tough connotation with it and, and trying to sort of reinvent it ends and see what is the beauty that comes from it.
David : Yeah. And one of the things too, that we've, when we took our break with the podcast, we were able to take a little bit of a pause to take in some feedback, kind of be critical with ourselves and what we are wanting to do with the podcasts. And I think one of the things that I'm excited about, as we have started this new chapter is a little bit of the format being talking through like an idea, and really pulling apart theory and philosophy around an idea. But then looking at the practical. Yeah, whether it's a big idea that can come out of the theory and philosophy, or is there a story or what is the super small thing that we can implement in our daily lives and routines and with relationships that we have around us? To begin to put that theory and philosophy into practice, and really marry those two together. So that's one of the reasons I like, for me, I'm excited about this interview too, because we're going to hear a really powerful story and see what anger has done for somebody else, and how they've been able to implement it in a way that they bring a lot of real change. I think it's something that we're going to be able to take in and apply to just how we live.
Mary : Yeah, no question. Yeah. And what we want to start with is, I want to ask David, what is you know, when you think of the word anger and the emotion, anger, like what's your relationship to it, because I think that we all have a relationship to it and a knee jerk response to that word. And like we just said, probably mostly, a negative theme that comes coupled with it. But what is your relationship to the emotion of anger?
David : Yeah. Well, when I think about anger, One of the things I think about is like when I meet with a high school student or college student, or someone that is looking at making a career change, the question that is most often wrestled with is like, what is it that you love to do? And then can go find something in that area? And I think that's a great question and a powerful question. But an equally powerful and very question as well. What is it that you hate, because hate and love really are the same coin is just two different sides,
Mary : right, they're coming from the same place.
David : So that passion of love, I think, is equal to the passion of anger, like love and anger also show that this passion can be tapped into. Earlier this year, I watched the documentary about Mr. Rogers. And near the end of that documentary, it was a pretty quick comment, but they said how angry Fred Rogers was in real life. And at that moment, I paused that, and I grew rewound it, and I played it again. And when they did that, like, all of a sudden, it just felt like a wave of relief, because I could completely relate. Like, I'm always the optimist. I'm always like, happy, I always believe the best in people. But there's so much for the work that we do with coffee for the work that we do with, I don't know, immigration, or like the social enterprise, using the tools of business to make the world a better place. Like that's kind of why I do coffee to begin with. All of that is really driven by anger. And I, in that paused moment, like even just pausing at that moment, when I was watching the documentary, I stopped it just to just to stop and reflect for just a minute, I realized that I'm a really angry person. So it never shows up in like, the traditional anger ways. Yeah, I don't hit people, I don't get into fighting like, but for me, it was a surprise, and a little bit of a relief, to like claim that anger. And it helps me to tap into it more. But knowing that I'm doing in a positive way, like I'm, and feel like I'm learning now to use that passion to truly bring real change. And that's what they highlighted in the documentary, you know, here's Mr. Rogers, like, not quite Jesus, but just about as close as you can get. I mean, even his kids said that, but driven by anger, like, you know, that he would see war, and he would do episodes in response to the war, he would see racism. And he was very clear to make sure that in the 1960s, one of the main characters was a black male officer. And there was an episode that they highlighted where he invited, he had his feet in a small little baby pool. And he invited the black officer to put his feet in that poll, too. And it was because that week, there was this huge news story because black people were asked to leave or forced to leave in a segregated pool. Yeah. And so he was really mad about that. So he's like, screw this, I'm going to put a black guy on on the TV show. And we're going to show what racism is supposed to look like, or a healthy relationship with race is supposed to look like
Mary : Well, I think it's like, when I watched that, too, I felt like, yes, someone that comes off to the world and their work with the world comes off as like, upmost love. But then you learn that actually, what has inspired that action came from a place of anger, like suddenly you're like, Oh, that is so relatable. And I didn't even know that maybe that's actually the match that lights my fire was coming from that place. Like I was telling you, I think earlier today even that, I realized that in some of my readings on anger, that anger is a response. And then it comes from within and that oftentimes I think that we are misled thinking that anger is something that happens to us, not something that happens within us. And so it's interesting to realize that like, oh, anger is a response to something. So if you're recognizing that you're having that response, then that's coming from a place that you could tap into, and to know that it can transform into something so powerful and so beautiful is the thing that you and I are trying to like, invite people to explore, because we've experienced it personally. And then even just in your Mr. Rogers story. I feel like it's the exact same thing. It's like the epitome of just saying like, oh, someone was super angry all the time and they turned it into something really productive.
David : Right, what I think that maybe that is the way to make sure it's productive. So if it's an internal response, we either bottle it up, and then let the anger fester inside us. And then the responses are often negative, or unproductive. versus something triggers his anger response within us. Yeah. And it is from within. But we gotta get it out as fast as possible that maybe the best way to do that is like, so how do I respond? in a beautiful way?
Mary : Right. And to me, I think the best way to respond in a beautiful way is to acknowledge it frequently. Yeah, and not have it, like dormant, and then explode like a volcano. But that's not easy, because it's an uncomfortable emotion. Like, I find it very uncomfortable, my story around anger is that I literally used to pride myself in saying that I'm never angry, like, I think in my entire high school and college, like, I thought I was like the coolest girl because I was like, I never get angry. Like, I'm so patient, I'm incessantly patient. Um, and that's because I felt like growing up, I didn't see productive anger, it felt irrational, it felt unpredictable, it felt scary. And so my way of coping was like, okay, anger is not a good thing. I don't see how it can be a good thing. It feels like someone comes and jumps on a trampoline. And you're like the one that's sitting on the trampoline, and you're supposed to get cracked off, like there was like a wave of effect, or that came with it. So my relationship had always been up until I became a mother, when it became much more primal for me to just tap into that, was that anger is not a good thing. And so I was like the cool one, because I was never angry. And then suddenly, I had a kid. And there's something that happens, you know, I'm sure many people go through different transformations. I don't think that having kids necessarily means that that's the only way you're going to tap into new emotions, but it did for me. And I became very raw, and I had very little tact. And then suddenly, it was like, I had this clarity of like, Whoa, I am a mom and I was able to birth a child or like my reality became so different overnight, that I felt this strength. And then suddenly, like anger came out to me as like a boundary setting where it was like everything that was happening around me, it was like, No, I'm gonna say how that does align with me or how that doesn't align with me. And that was coming from an internal fire, but there was no tact. I will not say that I had any tact.
David : This reminds me of a tool that I learned in premarital counseling with Beth. Where, for the super practical around anger that I've learned that has been really helpful for really all of my relationships is called the 24 hour rule. So usually a partnership, a relationship, there's like, someone is one way and another person's a little bit different, right? There's an attraction to being different from one another. And so in many relationships, one person will express anger right away. So usually, the feeler will say, hey, you just did this thing, and it made me really mad. And then you get to be mad all the time. But the other response, which is also unhealthy, is the person that bottles it all up. And they never say what is on their mind, or they never explained what's angry, which is then also where addictions can kind of start from that, like a lot of unhealthy behaviors can start from this bottling up and it's a crack in the relationship. So the counselor said he and his wife were a little bit different. Usually the male of the relationship is the bottle up person and a woman with a female presence is more the person that says the emotion right away. In his relationship, they were opposite. But the rule that they came up with that was really helpful was this 24 hour rule. So where if you're someone who responds really quickly, to an angry response, the key is to wait 24 hours before you say hey, yesterday, this happened, and I'm really upset about that. The reason why that 24 hour rule works really well for that personality type is usually the thing that made you angry in the moment actually wasn't a very big deal. And 24 hours later, you don't even remember it.
Mary : So it's like what we talked about with feelers you're processing out loud all the time. So like what if you like, remember that if you're always, because I process out loud, oh my and then things can pass rather than feeling like, the person is just constantly expressing frustration or anger, which is probably pretty debilitating, right?
David : Yeah. And especially over time. So at some point, the other response might be just to tune it out, because it's like crying wolf all the time,
Mary : Right, It's like it holds no weight
David : right. But the 24 hour rule works for the other person as well. So if something is still bothering that person in 24 hours, they're not allowed to bottle up after 24 hours, they have to let the other party know that, hey, this thing really made me mad. So there's also this outlet where they're not allowed to bottle things up. And so for that individual personality type, the 24 hour rule is also really helpful.
Mary : Well, it's cool, because when we talked about like, six months ago, I was leading a team and I was making what I call a recipe for complex conflict resolution. And we talked about this and the 24 hour rule came up for the workplace too. Because we were saying that that could be an element of conflict resolution in the workplace to that even if you have an exchange with a colleague, like, if it still sticks after a day, then it's something worth sharing. And if it still sticks after a day, for the person that maybe is less vocal or a bit less of a feeler, then it also is something that they need to go outside of their comfort zone to share. So that was something that like, I feel like it it's not yet even though you discover this in premarital counseling, it's like it's just in relating with people and how you express your triggers,
David : No, it's been really helpful for our team, because we've talked about it. My closest managers, we, I mean, they refer to the 24 hour rule all the time. If there is conflict among the team, we follow those principles. And it's been really helpful
Mary : As someone that's such an outward processor that will tell you everything in my passing thought, that would make me feel uncomfortable to know that someone was sitting with something for 24 hours and ruminating on it. Maybe it's not even that they're ruminating. But it's just funny that my knee jerk response was like, Man, that would be really hard for me to absorb that information, knowing that someone that it was hard for them a) to talk about it. because maybe that was out of their nature, but b) that it was with them for that 24 hour period. Oh, that would carry a lot of impact.
David : I think at first, there. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And I think even like,
Mary : you're like, I made you mad for that long? I could have fixed it.
David : Right? so like, I think that for that type of person, the person that bottles it up tends to be an internal processor too
Mary : right, they need that time.
David : So that time is not that they're angry for 24 hours. It's like that angry in the moment. But it takes them 24 hours to even put words to the anger that they feel. So I think that's why
Mary : Yes, it's, I think it would do the same thing for me. Like I was talking about how I felt tactless like this, to me feels like something that would give me tact and trying to, I am very able to put words to it. But I don't know if I'm able to put words to it in a way that could be productive. Because it's almost like I feel like if you talk about it right away, like that's expediting it, but it actually can do more damage. Because then you're doing it without thoughtfulness. And maybe it was something that didn't need to be unpacked to begin with.
David : And using it, you're right, you've now amped it up.
Mary : Oh, my God, I cannot relate to that more. I'm sure all of my friends and family listening to like Mary is the sort of person that I mean, I was, I was raised in a family that we had family meetings, and we would talk about like, Hey, you know, my brother Johnny, like, what made you happy today? You know, the highlight low light practice, like, what was your highlight of the day? or What was your low light? That's not exactly what we did. But there was a feeling around that. And we would go around and everyone would be able to share something. A lot of that was sharing something that may be upset you know, I probably told on someone as the youngest. I was the tattletale that came up often around the table. And so we were always like having a space to go there frequently. So I'm used to frequent communication around tricky stuff. But sometimes just like, heightens it.
David : So what I hear is that there's both good and bad, like, that's a really great family practice. I hear I'm like, Ooh, that's something that I would want to implement. That sounds like a great idea. But it's also like, it's a little culty. I'm sure that there's some negative effects of that as well, right. Yeah, but the bottom line is all of us come from so many different backgrounds, even if we have the same economic, race, gender, all the things, we still come from different families. Yeah. And our family systems are vastly different from one another. And so some people have had those experiences, but probably most, and you can say that about any experience that there's lots of things that we share, and lots of things that we don't share. And so it's kind of just even respecting that we have lots of things in common. And we have a lot of things in different and processing information and processing emotion is just another one of those things. I think that when I also hear you say I process out loud, so again, recently learned that I'm an extrovert, and I absolutely process a lot of things out loud. I can remember a couple instances where something happened, where it did make me upset, like really upset. Where I knew that I would be upset 24 hours later, a couple times I have said hey,
Mary : like it was so clear to you. well, that's like, don't you think that that's because there's a physical sensation? That is a part of it? Because to me, like, that's when you feel? Well, maybe not? I don't know. I'm just like, is there is like, what's the? What are the signs? Like? What makes that different in texture than you having something that feels like you could sit with it for 24 hours? What’s the elements?
David : I mean, I think I can't quite remember specifics. I just know that that like, that was my response, like, Okay, this thing happened. And without question, I know, I'm gonna sit with this for 24 hours. And I want to talk about it. And more often than not the way I would say that as an external processor, I would call it out right away. Like, I'm thinking like, in a work context. This, I can't remember the specifics. But I remember in a work context, saying, like, whew, this happened. I'm upset about it. But I do want to talk about it tomorrow. So I like acknowledged it right away, and acknowledge, like, Oh, this really made me mad, I just want you to know, but let's unpack it. I know, I need to think about my role in whatever made me upset because I always tend to think that no matter what if someone if there's a conflict period, I have to assume that I brought something to the table. And so it has to be something. So
Mary : I mean, that just sounds so emotionally intelligent to me. And then I feel like of all the emotions, anger is the hardest one to put, like control around that. I think if I was listening to even as I sit here listening to and I hear that you say that you recognize that fierce of an emotional response. And you were still able to like say, Oh, I'm experiencing this, and I'll talk in 24 hours. I'm like, I don't know many people that would be able to without a ton of practice.
David : But I think that is the key
Mary : Is that you've just been practicing this 24 hour rule for how many years?
David : 12 years
Mary : right. So that's huge. Because otherwise, I think of when I think of all angers, or all emotions, I think of anger is the one that is one of the hardest to, like, stop a train in its tracks. And that it also For me, being someone that said I was never angry. I didn't even know what anger felt like or what it looked like, besides one thing that I observed or witnessed or experienced. And then suddenly, I became it was a physical response for me. So it was like a feeling of breathlessness and heat, and then over time probably like, like a feeling of resentment. But also, anger to me, has affected my sleep, and my health. My physical health, but like, it's taken me a long time, it's almost like the first step to what they say around a lot of things is like recognizing it. And that would i would like to have to like first dial back and say, Oh, I'm recognizing what is this? Because it felt so foreign to me.
David : Well, so think about how if recognizing it is one of the first critical steps like all sudden 24 hours becomes a gift. Like you get 24 hours. So like, unpack it a little bit more, and process your emotion and take a deep breath. The question that I'm curious to you is so I do think that what I just described is maybe the end of the story like this is what you can hope for is that you can have and learn over a lot of time. and a lot of practice of the 24 hour rule. How to like very quickly respond to something in a very healthy way. That's the end of the story. The beginning of learning how to process anger, if the first step is recognizing it, maybe the second step is like, what does it look like to implement a 24 hour rule? And obviously, to share with whoever you have the conflict, like, Hey, you know, even in that first conflict, you have to now explain to them what the 24 hour rule is, maybe, you know, and that might be a way to help. So that's definitely a big step forward.
Mary : Well, the way I started to recognize it, besides the physical sensations was I started to ask myself, like, what did I keep complaining about? Or What was something that ruffled my feathers, that and then if I'm sitting in talking to a colleague, and there's like a theme to what I'm bitching about, or there's a theme to the nagging that I would do at home? I mean, I hate that word. But like, you know, what are those things that come up that it's like, so easy for you to go to that place of complaining? And then ask yourself, Is there a theme there, and then that's where I found where my anger was coming from. And then,
David : So that sounds like a tool system that you've kind of built through experiences?
Mary : Totally, because I needed to first understand, when I was angry, versus when I was feeling sad, or happy or confused, or, you know, there was just like, so many complex emotions, that anger got muddled up between all of it. So then, those were things that helped me to recognize when I was coming from a place of anger, because that's like, anger, anger. And that way, just like love is like an effortless energy. Really, when you think about it, it comes with very much ease. So if you could transfer that ease full energy,
David : right? Yeah, I think what if there's one thing I would love people to take away from this conversation is, anger is a gift? Yeah, right. It's not that it's not negative and we have plenty of examples of what anger in a negative context looks and feels like. But anger as an emotional response gets us to an easy thing, like all of the sudden, we can tap into a passion and do something like it makes me feel like you know, when, like an emotional response, anger is adrenaline producing, like you see a car accident, and you need to and also your body has supernatural strength to do whatever it needs to do. And so anger is this response that can get you to that kind of place. So anger, I think, if anger can be looked at more from a positive perspective, like, it is a healthy emotional response. Anger helps us discover and set boundaries, right. So what are some other ways that you think of when anger being used in a more positive kind of line of thinking?
Mary : Yeah, I mean, the boundary thing is very real for me, because it's how I transformed how I used to work and how I work now. And, you know, it was a journey. But it started with me being in that co worker relationship, where I had a theme around the stuff that was frustrating me around the workplace. And then I realized, okay, well, then that means that something doesn't work for me. So therefore, I can set a boundary and reinvent What does work for me. So it propelled me on this path of like, Okay, then here are the elements, it helped me identify the traits of the next workplace, and the next workplace and the next workplace. And that's been over the course of the last, you know, decade. And then now because of that work, and ongoing understanding what boundaries I need to set that would help me sustain and not burn out, I've slowly manifested a balance that works for me. So I think that that's something a lot of people can relate to. You almost have to experience it repeatedly. The pain of it for you to then actually shift into the change of it.
David : Right. You said something earlier today you related anger to fire And I thought that that was a really healthy visual, because when I think of fire, I can think of it in this wildfire scenario where it's just raging uncontrollably. But I also can think of fire that when controlled, is used for cooking is used for automobiles and engines it's used. And so to me, it's a very appropriate word that matches
Mary : totally and just like anything, I mean, you add fuel to that fire and it can go out of control, but if contained. So if you have those tools of tact. I think the fire can just be more Really beautiful and productive and resourceful.
David : My mind also went to, as you learn maybe these tools and put them into practice in terms of containing, like, then to seek out more fuel. Like all sudden you can maybe even narrow in on what's driving your anger and, you know, more of a like a world change kind of thing.
Mary : Yeah, the change maker. Yeah, totally. Because then, you know, I think that fire tends to be a lot of the reasons why or anger. They're sort of like synonyms for me for why entrepreneurs start businesses or there's radical schools of thought. And that with that, once you hone in on it, you still need that fire. So it's almost like you have to keep propelling forward, even though it's so easy like Yeah, there's this forefront energy. How do you keep that forefront energy like throughout, and that's like why entrepreneurs have to reinvent and reinvent and reinvent. And so there's got to be a source of fire coming. And I think that that usually comes from like, a company has a mission, like a consumer focused mission of how they want to impact the world. And that's becoming more than norm, like benefit corporations, like we were talking about. And that is what keeps them steadfast in the fire. And it keeps like the fuel can keep trickling through, because of that being a part of the foundation, rather than just like, starting a company with no sort of heart or emotion behind it, and slowly dissipating..
David : Yeah, and and i think that I mean, that makes me think of all the coffee shop owners I know, like, they would so many people that started coffee shops, or at least the ones that we've worked with, it's coming from a place of anger, where Why does not why it doesn't my community have a safe place for better dialogue? Or why don't we have tools needed for better dialogue. Now, none of them would say that they're a social enterprise, or that they're socially minded business. But to me, they absolutely are, because they're creating the safe place. And there's tapping into that anger quite often, where it comes up in the way that they design their cafes, to make sure that there are spaces where people can connect, it shows up in them hosting dialogue conversations around hard topics. So I think in small ways, one, that's one thing that I want to continue to explore these small steps, I think are so critical. So if you are angry about something, it's not that you have to like, quit your job and everything that you do, and you know, do some huge thing. But you can truly do something small. Now, that begins to set you up for the bigger things later. And those small things are just I think, if we could just do anger as a better way to have dialogue with one another. I mean, doesn't our society need that now more than ever? And isn't learning one of these tools, maybe a great way to start to implement better societal dialogue?
Mary : Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think if it, what if it could just be as simple as that? just as simple as recognizing what anger is for you how it presents, and where that's coming from, and how you could transfer that energy into something positive, because it's an effortless emotion, it's an effortless amount of energy. So you might as well shift it into something you can do because you're gonna expend that energy no matter what. And then in sort of the next layer is finding that tact by trying that 24 hour rule and seeing when things stick and when things don't, and how to then express it after some introspection.
David : Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, that was fun and intense. There was certainly a lot of passion. I'm looking forward to our interview. So we'll hear more in just this next segment. Any other final thoughts, Mary?
Mary : Final Thoughts? Um, okay, so there's this amazing book by Harriet Lerner. And I first learned of her book from Brene Brown, and it's called “the dance with anger” and I loved like bringing in the visual dance because it seems like what we're talking about is it's a dance, it's a give and take, even if it's in relationship to yourself or to someone else. And she said in the book when I was reading it recently, it says It takes courage to know when you're angry and to let others know about it. And that really stuck with me, personally, because that's something that I've wrestled with. And I think that many of us wrestle with because we think that maybe anger should not be voiced or should not be a part of the conversation. And when in fact, I hope that what everyone took away from this conversation we just had was that it could be the total antithesis of that. And there are a lot of beautiful aspects to anger. We're super excited to have you listen to an interview. And let him share his story. As we go.
David : We're excited to introduce you, Don McLaughlin. Don is an investor, serial entrepreneur, and former fortune 500 corporate lawyer who discovered the healing powers of hemp and other super herbs after he hit rock bottom at the height of his legal career. By integrating these herbs into a daily routine, Don transformed his health and professional career. With these changes, Don turned around and then sold a multimillion dollar consulting firm that he founded, and simultaneously became a 100 mile ultra endurance trail runner at the age of 46. So through anger and passion, Don really made some significant changes. And we're excited to share his story with you, as we continue the episode of the angry there.
Mary : We’re here speaking with Don. Don's a friend of mine, a fast friend, and only met in January, and we probably only got to have a couple coffee sessions even because we were going through a startup business accelerator, which is exactly what you'd expect. It's an accelerator, super high speed. And the two times that Don, and I got to connect, we felt like he was just a kindred spirit to me. And we've both had leadership training and authentic leadership from Naropa University. And when David and I were talking about who we wanted to speak to, in regards to how anger can be a catalyst for change, I thought of your story, Don, and would love for you to share just a little bit about who you are to start. And then really what I and I know that the listeners want to hear is like what is your relationship to anger?
Don : Great. Well, I appreciate that intro Mary, and delighted to talk with you. So I like to think of myself as both a seeker and a creator at the same time. And that's shown up I think, in my life, trained as a lawyer, but it really pushed the bounds, I think of what a typical lawyer might do for their work. And I'm also, you know, a father of three, my oldest is 19, at Colorado School of Mines, and I've got a 17 year old girl and a 12 year old boy. And with that I'm also an athlete, I've been a lifelong athlete, and later in life, at a time that I really needed it, I found long distance ultra endurance trail running. And that's been and continues to be a very important part of my life and just really started in my mid 40s. And now I’m, as it turns out an entrepreneur a couple times over, and I founded a company that's a labor of love born of my own lessons of not taking care of myself and burning the candle at both ends to the point that there was no candle left. Yeah, the bottom really came out for me in ways that a lot was at stake. And by a combination of grace and grit. I saw my way through a very difficult time that started in late 2012. And it's not just been all roses since then, while I've built and then scaled and sold a successful consulting firm. Previously, in the midst of all of that, you know, my marriage of 16 years unraveled, and I think returned to that sort of grace and grit. And I think this conversation around beautifully angry, I feel does really resonate with my experience through the course of that journey and where I'm going now.
Mary : Yeah, so like was there, would you say that anger was what prompted some of those shifts in your life and the evolution of where you were and where you are now, and I'm sure where you will be but I'm curious, like how has anger played a role in this transition, these massive transitions that you've made including some loss around a marriage and other things.
Don : Yes, for sure. You know, I think the topic of anger is one that, honestly, it's one that's been uncomfortable for me, I think having grown up, you know, in a traditional Irish Catholic family, where, you know, kids are to be seen not heard was, you know, definitely an added adage in a large family, I was one of seven. And you know, expressing anger a little uncomfortable, even though I witnessed it around me a little bit my parents and the way they raised us, it's only been, I think, through the course of my adult life, where I really connected with anger in a more healthy way. And it's an ongoing process for me. And the anger, I would say, that's been most catalyzing for me is one that's really a very personal one, directed and channeled internally, in this way. It's that anger that I felt about being out of integrity with myself, and the marshaling of this energy internally, that has an anger element to it, that I feel like has been the catalyst for those big changes. And it's a, you know, paradox in a way in that I've definitely experienced anger that's been not helpful, that tends to lead me astray. And that sort of anger is externally oriented at circumstances that I believe are outside of my control that I'm angry about, and griping about, and the catalyzing anger has been one that I've owned within, to recognize that I play a role in my own experience of life and the influence I can have, in my own way. And so, you know, when I had this very, very low moment in my life, on, there was this, again, there was sort of this combination of this channeled anger about how much I had fallen out of alignment with my own integrity, and a coupling of love and acceptance for myself. And, and, and my having found myself, so out of integrity with myself. So it was kind of both at the same time that seemed to have this alchemy. And it led to me doing a one-eighty over the course of several hours, and shifting the course of my life in very big ways that had me turnaround, a business that was at the risk of going under, even though you know, a multi million dollar business, dozens of employees. I all of a sudden just had a total shift in mindset and all the anger that I'd been directing sort of externally. And what sort of anger am I talking about? Anger around the intense and persistent and prevalent greed that I worked within, in both the legal world in big law firms and also in, you know, fortune 500 companies where maximum return to shareholder and the pressure to constantly have more got me angry. And yet, that anger, again, wasn't serving me until I got to a point where I could just accept my circumstances and love myself for having fallen prey to that chase for more, I recognize that I was very much doing that. And that's how I got so out of alignment with myself.
Mary : So like, I mean, you said so many amazing things that I can connect you right there. But the first thing that comes up for me is that it was like you were being pulled into something that was out of your nature. And so you had to recognize that you were, you know, you said integrity, but to me, it's almost like you were just out of homeostasis. And that, how did you being out of homeostasis? How did that present? Was it physical? Like what were some of the elements or texture that came with you that helped you have that one-eighty?
Don : Yes. Great question. For me, I think it showed up in the feeling sort of the persistent resentment, and feeling just dissatisfied, more than dissatisfied. Like just upset constantly about, you know, living a life that I knew was increasingly not my own, right. I was pursuing and chasing a definition of success that there really was not my own, even though I 100% bought into it and agreed. But I got to a point where I realized I'm no longer in agreement. Yeah, my pursuit of these external forms of validation and success that I've made up, you know, associated my own mind as, you know, that I’m worthy, you know that I'm that I'm valued. And so I think what it showed up as though was just outbursts where it was me not really, you know, doing a great job of calmly, um, expressing anger. And I mean that in that way, right, rather than just blowing up without having really thought through what, where the source of energy was it was just knee jerk that knee and you know, it definitely undermined my marriage, it definitely has impacted my parenting and my children directly. And so that, you know, sort of stacked up. And when I had this reset in late 2012, it very much was a reset, where that anger all of a sudden was channeled into good, I just felt this compulsion to serve as best I possibly could, in every single capacity in my life to serve life. Yeah. And so that became all of a sudden a new way of viewing anger. And it became far more productive, far more productive. Not to say that there are unhealthy aspects of anger that I still grapple with. But I feel like, it was like, you know, a night and day shift for me.
Mary : So something that David and I talked about was the process of recognizing the anger and then finding the tact around it. And I'm wondering, what practices, like you said, you know, that it came out in an unproductive way, or it was a, like a response to something rather than an ownership, like, Are there any other practices that come up for you that you think are potent for your own journey, but also that you hope to instill in your children or in the people that you lead?
Don : Yes, great question. For me, um, meditation in any form is absolutely vital. Because it allows me to notice, when, you know, unhealthy aspects of anger return, where I'm, you know, projecting outward instead of owning my own anger, right, and my ability to be a creator, have agency around my anger. So that's vitally important. And then, you know, for me, solitude, particularly in wilderness, nature, connected with nature, in some way, provides something similar, it's a space in which I can reflect. And in the course of doing so I seem to have more of a gap between things that happen, and my response to them where previously, I might just lash out, I'm able to, again, recognize when feelings of anger come up and redirect them in much more productive ways, in ways that I feel like really move things forward, rather than just spin cycle on outrage, and, you know, almost drama around what that, you know, anger is tied to externally, if that makes sense.
Mary : Yeah, I mean, that makes total sense, you know, something that I've been always wanting to ask because I think about how you were saying that outside in nature and thinking about you as an ultra runner. Um, I've always wanted to ask long distance runners because I'm sure you've heard this, people say runners are running from something. Right. So to me, I feel like running is like a transfer of that energy and that fire that I think can be synonymous with anger. And I'm wondering, like, what would be your response to someone saying that and what is your relationship to that statement?
Don : Wow, that's a good one. I have heard that before. And in my capacity now, as founder of Pure Power, we have many fans that are long distance ultra endurance trail runners and endurance athletes. And I see that in myself and others. And what comes up for me is that I am running away from temporarily, the inclination to get caught up in the excellent stances and my anger directed outward. And instead, it allows me a pause, to move away from that sort of knee jerk reaction and return to a place of, you know, just greater awareness and conscientiousness, around anger and things that I’m feeling strongly about whatever it may be and in channeling it in that way through running for me or endurance generally, it just seems to be transformative in that I come back far more able to manage anger in a more productive way and recognize, again, my own agency and that I'm not at the whim of external circumstances or caught up in them and that I can through my own channeling of that anger, in a way. I like to think be at more peace. But also, feel like an agent, feel like I can be proactive, more than when I would set out on a run. Honestly, when I'm feeling victimized and subject to circumstances and angry about that, I return much more grounded and capable, I feel like to respond better.
Mary : Do you think that like, in physical exertion it sort of expedites that processing?
Don : Yes. 100%. And um
Mary : so like, I would, but you could even speak to that, from a biological perspective to knowing that, you know, with pure power botanicals, like does anything come to mind as to how there's a connection that can be made in that can expedite that process?
Don : Yes, for sure. I think that anger, like so many emotions, and it's obviously a very strong one can get internalized within the body and show up in, you know, muscle tissue, and myofascial, all of that, right. And movement is, you know, emotion, in motion. And I think that that's, it just can work its way through in ways that what's happening with the Maasai tribe, or so many native peoples, there's movement, because there's emotion, and there's something very magical that happens through the course of that movement. And that's absolutely part of my love for moving across the ground, exertion that I intend to do until, you know, I fall to the floor for the last time.
Mary : Yeah, I mean, it's like how we're the only species that is dropped that response to trauma where you shake, shake it off, you know, that, you know, when an animal goes through something traumatic, or they're in shock, and they shake, and that's like, there's so much around that, that we feel insecure to do that and that it feels out of body for us to do it or embarrassing, or whatever it may be when it's such a productive and so minor practice that can be helpful to moving anger.
Don : And it's so regrettable, because I think it's so accessible. Because if you see a gymnast, right, or a swimmer, and or a diver and they have a bad experience, what do they tend to a lot of times, right? they'll shake it out. Yeah, instead of shake it off. And athletes doing it, because it's like sloughing off just that emotion that's built up that they know is derailing their efforts, right, taking them in a direction they don't want to go.
Mary : So now that you feel like anger has been such a catalyst for you, like what are some really small easy to implement things that you would encourage other people to do? We just did an episode on presence. And in the midst of chaos recently and we talked a lot about meditation, but sometimes we feel like when we tell people here's this tool it can add to the experience of chaos or to the experience of anxiety or anger because it's just another thing that is anxiety producing or whatever it may be. So we're always trying to like explore, what are bite sized pieces of things that people can walk away with on a very minor but impactful level.
Don : Yeah, I love that. Because I think it can seem daunting, you know, in clients that I've coached and our customers as well. You know, these practices that come so easy to those that have implemented them seem overwhelming for those that their list is already, you know, full. A couple of very simple ones that come to mind that are so easy is just, you know, once a day have a practice of just breathing, just recapturing attention on breath. If it's only five breaths, 10 breaths, that that can be a way to reset right because we then turn the switch off momentarily from fight or flight, and we're just resetting ourselves. So that's one way is just deep breath.
Mary : Thank you for that. I needed it, always need it. I tell my three year old son, I taught him to take a deep breath. Like, that's one of my like, most proud things that he's absorbed. And I think probably 25% of the time do I do it with him. And I realized that a couple months ago, and now I'm trying to be like, okay, anytime I tell him like, I gotta do it, too. You know, thank you.
David : Parker has done the same thing. He just had a meltdown with me the other day. And it's like, buddy just breathe it out and like for a minute, it's amazing.
Don : Yeah, it kind of hijacks us, in a good way. Yeah, another that comes to mind is an extension of that, that I think is so under appreciated in our world, and it's the one that I felt like I was at the extreme of always got to be busy, always have to be connected, always, you know, the idea of shutting it down, even for a short period of time. The world I come out of, is like, you know, poo pooed, it might as well have been a wall street trading floor in the law firm. Because you're not working, you're not making money. Yeah, the idea of taking 10 minutes, and just closing the door, and just closing your eyes for 10 minutes and just setting a timer. You know, it'll be unsettling at first, because the nervous system is used to the constant stimuli. But if you can just practice that, you know, start with three minutes and see what happens, I think that what you’ll find is, you like it. And then you want to do imperceptibly, four minutes, five minutes, and that kind of builds up from there. So that's one thing I definitely recommend is just starting very small. And in the afternoon, when you feel like the wires are totally frayed inside, you just take a break. Right? Yeah, rough will be with eyes closed, just to remove all stimuli and get that experience of, Okay, I'm outside of all this stimuli just for a brief second. And then if one could do that outside and connect with some element of nature, whether it's a bird, or wind moving through grass, or leaves, all the better. Because, you know, science is now showing that that experience of being connected with nature absolutely down regulates fight or flight response, cortisol drops, it's all the things that we need to disconnect from all that external stimuli where that anger can take over us in ways that aren't productive. And they just lead to our exhaustion and I think increased cynicism.
Mary : Yeah, I mean, I think it's, we've talked about this in our first time that we ever did, but we're so incentivized, you were clearly so incentivized, to be busy, and, you know, very tangibly through pay. Whereas I think there's even a massive undercurrent of subtle, incentivizing, that's happening with being busy where even in text exchange, you know, the person Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so busy. Like there's something that is there's a positive reinforcement that's happening, society around being busy, and that what you're doing in taking 10 minutes or now what I know you do, and the way that you operate Pure Power more, and I'm sure it ebbs and flows, no doubt, but that you do operate with moments of pause and balance. And I'm wondering, you know, how anger has like shaped your business today? Because I feel like that's a piece of it, that I want you to dive into a little bit more, but also, how you sustain that balance despite the ever flowing incentive to do otherwise.
Don : Great question. I so appreciate it. And particularly given my work now. It's both a labor of love and also a mission fueled by anger around aspects of our lifestyle. And in particular, the more Western oriented culture and particularly in the US of a real disconnection from our own well being and our health and that we've been conditioned in my mind and we've agreed to it that external doctor's pharmaceuticals are the source for our well being. And that our food is something to just be consumed mindlessly and our consumption of other things that pulls us further and further away from ourselves, our own nature. And, for me, our source, ultimately. And the role that anger plays is that, for me, I've just had the experience of being closer to the behind the scenes of large organizations that have enormous influence on policies that I disagree with that elevate and prioritize profit over social good, and human welfare and well being. And so Pure Power is a way for me to highlight the gifts that mother nature gives us so generously, that are often overlooked in this culture driven by profit, and it provides another way, an alternative that I think brings more balance and alignment and peace and has a shift from again, looking externally for solutions to our health and well being and instead to the innate wisdom within our own bodies. And again, within these gifts that Mother Nature has provided that, for so long, sustained and nourished generations, right, of cultures that we have, I think, lost sight of and touch with. And also for me, Pure Power has a social cause component to it. And one of those social causes that we believe so strongly in is regenerative, organic agriculture as a way to reverse the clear and present danger, from soil degradation, from the damage caused by large scale industrial agriculture that we know is causing, you know, problems here domestically with the Mississippi Delta and all that soil rich, nutrient dense soil out of the Midwest that for decades now has been flowing down the Mississippi and essentially killing the bayou, to other places around the world, right. And so, I see Pure Power, our mission, in part to fuel the efforts of an organization one that we really aligned with Rodale Institute based in Pennsylvania, by the founder of Rodale publishing years and years ago, and they have a hemp initiative. And pure power supports that initiative, financially, because its sole mission is to study how hemp can be integrated by farmers to regenerate soil, and do so in ways that simply don't require the chemical inputs that are in so much of our agriculture. And so diminishing, you know, chemicals, and also regenerating the soil in the way that hemp does in a very, you know, balanced way. So, that's a way that we're kind of channeling that anger in ways that, you know, I've always so admired, you know, as millions in generations will continue to do, small man named Gandhi in India, you know, channeled in anger around British occupation, to what it was going to, as opposed to what it was fighting against, would India have gained independence as rapidly and as, arguably, peacefully as it did? So I think for us, I take that as a model of channeled anger toward what we want. And for us, it's regenerative agriculture, where chemical agriculture is viewed as the thing that costs more money, because of the downstream costs to both environmental and human welfare. And in particular, the destruction that chemicals in agriculture have caused to the human biome, the gut biome that I think is at the heart of so many autoimmune disorders that are, you know, really have caused so much havoc.
Mary : I mean, even just as you said that I just had this visual that it's not running from it's running to like it, just like came full circle for me where it's like it's a it's a running to, it's the act of running to and not what you're fighting against or running from. It's a running to.
Don : Yes, yes. And that future, I think is a very, very promising one, even though it seems so daunting, particularly given decades of you know, distrusting science well, science will show you as Rodale is showing that regenerative agriculture, it has immediate benefits in terms of being more productive in drought years, because the soil is richer and it's able retain the moisture, but then the downstream consequences. science shows that it is absolutely the sustainable way. And that's what obviously native people thought about multi generational use of resources in a way that could provide for generations.
Mary : Yeah, yeah. I'm wondering who, like, Who have you known Is there anyone that comes up for you, when you think of a representation of beautiful anger, personal, professional, someone that you try to even model your work on now?
Don : Well, when the hard times come. And there are, you know, as a startup entrepreneur with a social cause part of our business, and I'm often reminded of the resolve, born, I think of anger, but channeled in a very productive way of Nelson Mandela, for all those years, that he was in just solitary confinement. And when he could have stood that anger and been never obviously pushed out and influenced an entire country, and then the world through his channel, the anger that steeped for years, but in a very directed way. That's a person that I admire, and I aspire to follow. Their lead, and there are so many others who experienced injustice, and channeled that in a most beautiful way, Rosa Parks, I mean, there's just so many examples. Yeah, there's so much light there, even in the midst of a lot of darkness in the world right now.
Mary : Yeah, talk about the epitome of sitting with it. And like, you know, marinating in it, that's something I struggle with, for sure, admittedly, and always wanting to just push something forward and fix it and make it right. And I think when you are a business owner, we talk about how you're just apt to do that, because you oftentimes need to, but that, that could be the band aid fix, rather than what you're talking about, the more regenerative approach to not only the work that you do and what you're providing your community, but also the way you operate.
Don : Yes, I appreciate that. And I think moving toward and living into that future, is again, the catalyzing aspect of anger, as opposed to it just cycling itself and sort of leading down a black hole. And so, yeah, working toward that future. And, you know, I feel like there's almost a metaphysical element too that I've experienced in my life. You know, there's this adage, you know, whatever you give attention to, right grows. And so, you know, constantly resisting what we don't want, I think, unfortunately, keeps us in an energetic loop. And Mandela was a perfect example of that he had obviously a lot to resist, he had an agenda to see that country, and the power structure completely changed in a way that came to be
Mary : Well, I just love talking to you every single time. Don. You're so eloquent. And I really thank you for spending some time and having a conversation around anger, especially when it's so current right now. And thank you for coming into the third place with us because that's what we're trying to do is go there and make it give people permission to go there and sort of be ugly in it. And I think that anger can really come off pretty ugly on occasion, but we're trying to find a way of making it beautiful. So I think that you really put it beautifully.
Don : Thank you for inviting me into this conversation with you both. I enjoyed it immensely and look forward to an opportunity to chat again.
Mary : Can you please tell everyone where to find what you're doing and what you're up to? Because I'm sure people will be pinging me like crazy.
Don : Yes, the best place on the personal front is people can just find me on social at Don McLaughlin, JR. On Facebook and Instagram. And then pure power is at pure power life on social, pure power life. And then a direct to our website is livepurepower.com
Mary : Thank you. We so appreciate you.
Don: This is so fun. I really love
David : Thank you so much.
Don : I love what you guys are doing.
David : Oh, thank you, genuinely
Don : I love it. I love it, to create a space to have these sorts of conversations. I love the third place. And the need for it is more pronounced than ever. right to have calm, thoughtful, conscientious conversations. You know, in our conversation, I think the thing that lingers with me that just came up is that there's an aspect of anger that the way in which we can collectively just fall prey to, all our programming and conditioning that we forget our own humanity. And behind that humanity is love, right? That's the thing that unites us all. So I feel like that's ultimately, you know, the single, unifying, cohesive thing for which a leader should be directed to wake us up to the reality that that is our existence.
David : Well, thank you again for joining us this week on our episode, beautifully angry. Of course, you can continue the conversation with us as you check out our Facebook and Instagram and really excited about our playlists, our music playlist that goes with this episode, you can find that both on Spotify, or Apple Music. And you can see the links in the show notes. Our hope truly is that we've sparked an energy inside you that you can tap into something that makes you angry, and that you view it as a calling, a call to action, that you can take a small step towards resolving that anger and bringing more love and joy and peace of the world through that passion and through that energy and through that anger. And, again, the hope that we see in the world today and the changes that we're looking to see and looking to make, so many of them can be brought through this anger energy and anger gives me hope. Anger gives us hope and we hope that it gives you hope too. Be well everyone.
