Ep 05 - Presence in the Midst of Chaos
Is anyone NOT in chaos right now??? All of us, even those of us that are doing well, are in the midst of so much uncertainty. In this episode, we will recognize the chaos, and talk through different tools and techniques to find quiet in the noise, many of which can be small micro-moments.
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David : Hello, everybody. Welcome to the third place podcast, where we talk about community, the gray space, the middle space, the and space. We have taken a break, and we are excited to be back with you. And this episode, we actually did not have planned, we had another one planned and that's going to be coming up next. But as we were getting ready to outline what we wanted to talk about, I realized that as a society, so many of us are just still in this place of chaos. My wife is a teacher, and we don't know what childcare looks like in the fall, we don't know what school looks like in the fall, and so many people are in that boat. Like there's already chaos. But there's so much additional uncertainty of just unknown, that seems to be adding so much chaos. So I asked Mary, if she could lead us a little bit more in the practice of presence in the midst of chaos, and what she thought about that. And we really just felt like that was a great topic to talk through. And whether it's we have kids that are going back to school, or are trying to figure out childcare or are employers that are trying to wrestle with the same questions on our employees behalf. There's just so much chaos and so much unknown. But presence is such a grounding tool and practice, I think that really helps us in the midst of chaos, to be intentional about creating spaces of presence.
Mary : yeah, I was gonna say the first time I experienced true chaos was becoming a parent, where suddenly you realize you have no control over everything. And then this is a whole new layer of that. But for me, personally, I was born into chaos, being the youngest of five, I have, you know, four siblings, I was oftentimes raised by my siblings, and then my two parents. And so there were seven of us. And we were just like a clan. And I've always known sort of a high vibration environment. And I have in turn attracted a lot of chaos I've noticed. So this conversation is so current for me, but also a lifelong practice, because I have noticed that chaos and attracting it and being in it has been unsustainable on my body and has negatively impacted me in the form of struggling with insomnia and anxiety and having certain workplaces that I felt like I ended up putting too much in which I think many can relate to, and then I mostly have felt the impact of chaos on my physical and mental health. So David asked me, because it's something that I think is very near and dear to me is finding practices that help mitigate that and that are easy to implement, while also understanding if you're more of a thinker, or feeler and how to relate with chaos and how to be able to access presence when it feels like presence can be so hard to access right now. I mean, like, even this morning, we were just talking about, as we started this podcast, both of our mornings got interrupted in a way that was unexpected. And I feel like the one thing that's consistent is that things are uncertain. And that you have to be able to sort of roll with the waves and roll with it. And so you have to be able to have tools that can support you in that. And a lot of that comes from identifying what makes you feel you're in a chaotic environment. Because what's chaos, for me, might be a way higher threshold than chaos for you or someone else. Right?
David : Right. For me, I've been able to learn some of the small tools about chaos and presence from you. And that's why like I am in no way an expert in this topic, but I do understand the value of it. And I think through just self learning through my other relationships through some tools that you've taught me through our friendship, I've been able to like pause in moments and rely on some quick tools. So while I'm learning tools now and actively trying to implement more daily practice, I've been able to process chaos normally because I tend to think a lot like you mentioned thinker, feeler I tend to be thinking through things quite a bit then I feel some things quite a bit and I think we things quite a bit and feel things again and and for me the the emotion side and I on the Myers Briggs I'm a feeler so tapped into more of the emotional side but I think a lot through information as well. My personal DNA is I tend to not get super high about things. So if it's something really excited, I'm like, Yeah, cool. And my wife or friends will be like, I thought you really liked that concert. Like, what are you talking about? I did. It was amazing. They're like, yeah, you said it was cool. I'm like, and it was,
Mary : like, wah wah lackluster.
David : So it's kind of been this joke among family and friends that I just don't get that super excited. Even though I am like, internally, I feel like I am.
Mary : Well, you're steady. That's what it sounds like, to me is that your steady? And there's like a sense of grounding that comes with you. And I think that you probably attract people like myself that can be excitable, where I'm much more like a roller coaster, right? Because you could anchor me and I can pull you up or down. Right. So I think that we attract partnerships, in friends and relationships and beyond that, that can help bring us to a different vibration,
David : right? Yeah, because it works the other way too. So I don't get super excitable. I also rename pretty calm in the valleys. So it's the same kind of energy that comes out when something when things are really bad, I'm able to be that anchor and calm and I don't get to down, you know, I quickly get to that playing out the fears conversation, I quickly am able to make decisions and kind of keep my wits and be rational, even in those low moments. But again, like just going to our current society, I think that that's a little bit like an emotional muscle. And I'm tired. So even though I can be this steady presence, that's another reason why I wanted to bring up this particular topic. I'm really tired. And I just need more shots of pausing, shots of breath, and some of the other tools that you and others have given me over the last several years that I think that others could really use too.
Mary : Yeah, I think that, you know, we feel good about being able to pivot quickly, like, you know, businesses, especially, and parents, and well everyone, every person has been called to pivot quickly. And so that's a response to chaos that is also productive, but it's just another exertion of energy. So just like what you were saying, like, yeah, if you're feeling steady, like you're still exerting energy, even if it doesn't come off as you being overly responsive one way or another, it still is an energy output. And I think that's what I always go back to is like, just how do we balance our energy, that's the way that I think all of the time. And that even though I'm, I grew up in an environment where I feel like I'm primed for, used to chaos. The fact that I feel so depleted from it is I think just human nature. Regardless, if you feel like you think preventatively and play out the worst case scenarios and then come to terms and then you can pivot because you've already put those things in motion. But that's like, that's a lot of brain activity. That's a lot of physical activity. That's a lot of activity, regardless of how it presents. And I think that growing up in an environment like that you actually can take anxiety into your body or be more prone to anxiety too. And that's how it translates. And so I struggle with anxiety, and half the time I feel like I don't even know why I'm anxious. And I'm in such a headspace. So this is that thinking space that David and I talk about thinking versus feeling even though I'm also feeling on that test. But that shows you that I need to go there more, right. So when I'm in that thinking space, usually anxiety comes from the fact that we're living in the past or living in the future in our mind. Also, on top of probably having way too many things that we're trying to process or that we're trying to tend to. And in order to understand where the anxiety is coming from, one of the practices that I do is taking a minute to pause and writing a list of all the things that I'm ruminating on. And it could end up being a list of 50 things and suddenly, just the act of writing it down. Not only is that a letting go, it helps me see that I'm trying to do way too many things or that I'm spreading my mental capacity too thin. And then it becomes very clear to me when I'm seeing visually with my eyes. What I can do now and I think anxiety is a little bit about feeling out of control and a lack of control. So if you can even break it down to a place where you're like, here's the one thing that I can do right now. And the rest of it doesn't matter. This process of writing it down is the process of letting that go for right now. And sometimes you don't have that access to a pen and paper. I use my phone a lot, or you could talk it out. Find someone that is, just like David and I were talking about that balances you that you can have a safe space of zero judgment. And you can just dump it out. Yeah, and not feel like they're gonna take it on
David : This naming activity, I think, for me is kind of that first step, you know, to even manage the chaos, just to write things down is such a great practice. And it connects the physical if you can physically write it down and connect the physical with the emotional, but just being aware of what is causing you the chaos. That's kind of the same as playing out your fears, when you write it down when you name them. It's like they have less power and control. You asked me that question like, Okay, well, we're gonna talk about chaos. What causes me chaos, you asked me that. And that kind of hit me like, I had to pause and think about it. But eventually, it was able to get to like, when I set too many expectations, I tend to be a little bit on the perfectionist side of things. Sometimes that can cause chaos, because I don't mean my own expectations, which are often unrealistic. And then, like, I get sometimes, like my days get caught up like, like today where something throws me off and, and I end up doing work that doesn't feel as meaningful, or just tedious, or you just kind of have to do it. It's like a chore, like taking the trash out like it's necessary. But it keeps me away from work that I just love when you asked me to name it. And I said that out loud. Like, it really helped me see the triggers of more chaos more often. And I think that was, for me that was really helpful.
Mary : Well, I mean, something I've learned about you, and the reason why we're connected. And I imagine anyone listening to this probably shares in the fact that they want to do purpose driven work. And if you are cut from that cloth, where if there's no purpose or heart behind it that you can connect to, it can be really hard to motivate. And so or not even motivate rather, the work that you have to do that's an unnecessary piece of the puzzle that makes it all come together that can feel purposeless, even though it serves your purpose is probably chaos producing or anxiety producing. And one thing that I was just thinking about when you were saying is I feel like I bet most people have never been asked what causes them stress, or what causes them chaos. Like, what if, in interviewing someone, or in just having a conversation, we started to understand and gave someone the opportunity to ask themselves that without judgment and be able to say like, oh, wow, like I didn't even know that, that caused you stress and that that was an essential piece of our co working relationship. Maybe there's a solution to that. And it could really mitigate a lot of things. Can you imagine if we ask someone like what, what causes chaos for you? Or you've never been asked what stresses you out?
David : that right there? One, we're just talking about the tool of naming it. And so I was thinking about, yeah, I need them, like name it and how helpful that was, even in preparing for this episode for me to name it. But then if you do have that tool, or you do really well with that, or you want to even take your relationships further, to then be proactive in relationship to ask that question of someone else. Not only does it help teach that tool to your immediate friends and family or network, but it also inherently creates additional safety for that relationship, you know, by asking that question. So I didn't think about using that tool in a proactive relational way. And I think that that's a really great exercise as well, because we're all just so stressed out right now. And we need relationships more now than ever. And thank God, we do have these tools to use at this moment.
Mary : Yeah, like right now we're in such a virtual world. And the tools out there are incredible. Like, I love all these project management tools. And I love the capacity to connect virtually, I mean, I don't know what we would do without it. It's such a blessing, especially as an extrovert like myself. But I do find that things like Slack, while I love it can be interruptive. And so one of the tools I told David that I do is that I, you know, I'm sure many people have heard of time blocking, but having loose time blocking where you're able to shut off maybe two of the inputs that we have because we have so many inputs. I mean, if you have your slack on and your notifications on five apps, and then you also have your text messages and phone calls. You could get potentially interrupted up to four up to, you know, at least five to 10 different inputs. And that's something that causes me chaos is when I can't find any flow because it's like also a muscle memory, you hear that thing and you get that satisfaction, but in actuality It feels like stress. We spoke about that in another podcast. And with Slack, it feels like sometimes just another extension of texting, which is the intention. But there are tools to say Do Not Disturb. And I think more and more people are honoring when people have prime hours. And it's a tricky thing. And I know that when I feel like my flow is disrupted, sometimes I can put that frustration or resentment out on the person that disrupted it when it's not them. It's sort of the built in way that we are operating now to co work virtually.
David : Yeah, that's, that's so true. Hey, I want to go back. You were talking about how powerful it was to ask someone what causes chaos. And how powerful that can be, to know that to create that safety? Is there a positive way to ask that question?
Mary : yeah. What if you even ask someone what helps you? Or what's the time that you felt really present? And like, what were the elements of why you felt so present? For me, it typically has to do with an element of nature being involved in it. So being outside and engaged conversation, which would mean that I felt I was bringing my full self, it was something that was exciting to me. So there is a level of excitability that isn't chaotic. And I don't know, I think it's like, feeling all of my senses because and feeling really, like I can be available for that which is right in front of me and the lack of worrying about something that had happened in the past or the anticipation of something to come. Yeah. What would it be for you, David? Like, what's one of the last times you felt the most present? And what was it about it?
David : Well, it's definitely nature for me. And so things like riding my bike, give me some headspace. It's being outside. Right now. There's some thunderstorms going on around me. And I just absolutely love rainy days and thunderstorms. And I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I actually like coffee a lot, because it just makes me want to sit and pause and, and be present. So that's one of the things for me is nature.
Mary : To me, it's like if you're in a rainstorm, you're forced to sort of stay in or stay inward. And I think you're someone that's so introspective. So get the environment that gives you the opportunity to be introspective and not too out there.
David : Yeah, I think that that might be true, because even when you ask that question again, you know, I'm an extrovert as well, which is something I recently learned. Because I do a lot of introspection, I thought I always thought I was an introvert. Yeah, we're preparing for a Myers Briggs personality episode here soon. So we went in a deep dive and I'm like, glaringly an extrovert instead of an introvert. Yeah. So when you asked me that question again, just now, the other thing it made me think of is how much I love winter. Like I love all the seasons. I love summer and I love getting out. But I love winter and the snow and fire and hot chocolate and
Mary : your personality type is driven by introspection, and as a teacher. And so like all the things that you want to do is you want to talk deep, you want to go deep, and those environments that allow you deep connection to which is like, I'm sure that your dream would be to be like trapped in a cabin with your loved ones in the on a winter day, so you could read and have great conversation and good food.
David : Yeah, let's do it.
Mary : You know, I was even thinking when you said that you like biking, and that makes you feel present. I am the same with mountain biking and mountain biking makes me feel the most present because there's a level of like, if I don't pay close attention right now I could hurt myself. And I was just thinking, Oh my gosh, everyone that does anything adrenaline junkie wise, or when you're doing something that involves thrill. I think that can also slap you into presence because there's a little bit of an element of risk or fear. So you have to be completely present and in your space.
David : So everything that you're mentioning, one of the things that I think is important to talk through as we talked about being present in the midst of chaos. When I first think about that, it may it makes me think through, okay, how do I incorporate 30 minutes of meditation or yoga? How do I incorporate, like biking more regularly, which is something that I am trying to do. But my schedule doesn't allow me to do it as much as I want to. I think that there's some concern to practicing presence, and then adding something significant to your schedule. And therefore making your schedule more stressful and chaotic like this. It's this really weird kind of loop. What I like about the things that you're talking about, so we're talking about naming it, identify, nature. Yeah. They're small moments. And I think for many people, right now anyway, because the world is just so filled with chaos. These micro tools are the ones that I think are just super helpful.
Mary : I think something as simple as washing your hands in cold water, I mentioned it, but there's this whole world of water therapy that you actually move blood flow, so you can move blood out of your brain or even your heart space, and then flush it back. So it can be as simple as like, how perfect is it, that I'm telling you to wash your hands during COVID. But that can also be, I would suggest, like ending with cold water, because that's when the circulation and the circulatory system responds in that way. So that's one tool that I practice, or if you're taking a shower, you can also rinse in cold water, and you'll start to actually crave it because there's an energy shift that happens. But it does, it's a little tough, not gonna lie to when you first do some cold water. Yeah, and even as simple as putting your feet on the earth or on the ground. Because we're such cerebral beings, we live in our head. And chaos is a product of that, that we often forget that we even have feet holding us up. And so that's this, you know, this movement of more and more bare feet, even bare feet running is bringing you back into the way that your body operates and grounds you. So I try to do that at least once a day, it helps having a toddler and it being summertime, it's definitely trickier in the winter. But my biggest suggestion is always to just drop the expectations and do something and say you'll do it for 10 seconds. And then just that you'll do that for 10 seconds every day. And then it becomes that 10 seconds is nothing. So it's easy to find your heart space, find your breath. One. Gosh, When was this? Spotify has these new mindfulness tools that they do daily. And there's this really cool breathing technique that I've used when I have anxiety or I need to click back in. And you actually use your thumb to trace your fingers. So you use your thumb at the base of your pinkie and you breathe into the top of your pinky and you breathe out to the bottom of your pinky. And then you go to your ring finger and you breathe into the top of that and you breathe out to the next and all you do is I mean, that's four breaths. And it takes no time. And that can be a complete clicking into presence. And I thought that was such a cool tool that it's like you need nothing, you need your hand.
David : Right? You know, it reminds me of, what is that HIIT exercise? Like high impact?
Mary : Oh yeah, like high intensity interval training, HIIT. With gyms not being open and people trying to get some exercise, that's been probably one of the most popular tools that I've used because it's sort of like high reward for very low. I say low risk, because I feel like it's a very low time investment. You know, you could do 10 minutes of, you could do five minutes of exercise even. And that's doing the same thing as what I was talking about. It's like, right, getting your heart rate up to match the chaos and then letting it rest getting it up, let it match because it's like when you're chaotic or anxious you like want to go on a run or like just like get up to where you feel like you are and then it will dissipate after that.
David : It feels like the same energy that can be applied to the emotional space. So it's the same principles but to the emotional space. So if you do the naming, and then you can identify triggers. And then you can create that habit of a 10 second exercise like the thumb and finger breathing exercise, then all sudden, like high intensity impact.
Mary : Again, high intensity but or high impact whatever it is, ultimately, we're just saying it's gonna work. It'll feel good. And it doesn't take much investment. It'll feel productive. Because I think that we're all feeling like, the last thing you want to do is add something to your plate like you were saying, David, and when someone's like, yeah, you just need to meditate more, so you can handle chaos more. You're like, when am I gonna meditate? So I have to get up earlier in the morning, and then I have to learn how to do it. And then I have to sit with it and recognize my thoughts. And even just thinking about that you feel more anxious, because look at I went five different directions in the course of 10 seconds.
David : And you added chaos. Yeah. high intensity interval training.
Mary : Yeah, high intensity interval training.
David : I like that line of thinking around these kinds of exercises for the mental space.
Mary : Yeah, cool that can be applied in that way
David : what you mentioned about slack is the same thing, just turn off your notifications for an hour might give you enough, it's a high intensity interval.
Mary : Because that feels intense to me, I'm not gonna lie, when I'm make myself unavailable, I feel anxious. So even though I've removed something, I feel more anxious because I'm not available. And that's something that I'm working with constantly is not like, I'm sure so many people can relate to the fact that when something comes in, they just want to fix it. Because like, then if you can just get off your plate as soon as possible, then that means that you've done something, and you've made some progress, and you feel some control. And I do that all the time. And so I've had a lot of success in that world, especially when I was in sales, because I was so hyper responsive. But then that became the norm. And then I was held to that standard. And then suddenly, I was burned out. I was so tired of living in that chaos. And I was like, wait, like, what if I could just slow my roll? Because having to respond and having that sense of urgency is adding to the chaos, no question, and I struggle with that.
David : I feel like this is going to be an odd analogy.
Mary : Bring it on.
David : So I grew up, you know, it's the joke. My parents walked to school uphill in the snow both ways,
Mary : My mom also had cactus on the way.
David : So I feel like our generation or me anyway, it's like being disconnected from a phone is our version of that. Like when I grew up, I rode my bike everywhere on public roads with no helmet like not that I'm suggesting doing that - I love road biking, and I've liked myself up like a Christmas tree. So for safety reasons, but I like I did all of this stuff as a kid with no cell phone, by the way. They didn't exist. So it's like this generational thing. So but now how the pendulum has swung to, there's no way I would ever let my son when he turns 12 go do that kind of thing without a phone. Right?
Mary : my mom wrote this incredible short story about how she and this was in, gosh, this was probably early 60s, she took a bus back by herself when she was like 14. And it was like a three legged bus trip from Minneapolis back down to Lewisville, Colorado. And it's the craziest short story. the entire time I thought for sure she was going to get murdered or something because she's a great, beautiful story writer. That's not the case. But I can't even fathom that. And there was no phone she like, they misquoted her on how much like it was supposed to be a diamond. It was two dimes. And it's like i just i think that that's all so fascinating compared to where we're at now.
David : So while we have these amazing tools, and we absolutely want to use them, they also seem to be adding to some of the chaos. So it's like there's no question about like a phone. It's like a tiger. Like it's an animal, right? And so it has amazing power and energy but it also is something that needs to be tamed. So how do we put these tools in the workplace and this talks about work life balance, too, like, unplugging from work is so much more difficult because these tools are here. How do we recognize it, like put all these chaos tools in practice, so we recognize it first. And now we very practically speaking, tame it for an hour and at first it feels stressful. But then we get used to it, and then we can do it a little bit more and a little bit more, and then really try to manage it without it adding to the chaos.
Mary : Yeah, and, you know, the conversation of boundaries is always a big thing. And so if you can do micro things, like, I like the idea of asking for permission, like I think at one point, you know, with you, I've like, asked for permission to not do as much as I was holding myself to. And you said, of course, like, so you validated that I was maybe going over the top, and that it was my own self induced chaos. And I asked for permission to not, which can be hard, because I think that if you're used to personal or professional environments that reward intense work ethics, which I think is also just a societal thing that we're sort of questioning right now. But if you are used to that, then then you've been rewarded for doing more, I mean, commissions is just that right for, like sales structure. But even just environments where you're rewarded, if you don't go home on time, or, and it can be subtle, it can be super, super subtle. But that can add to the chaos. And so you have to practice asking for permission to be able to start to trust that you actually do have permission. And it takes a lot of time. And I've been working through how I tend to trust more than not so that I can get myself in certain environments that can deplete me more than not. And so one of my biggest work over the last two years has been finding that internal discernment to ask the right questions, to find environments that are less chaotic. And so first, I had to understand what caused me chaos. And then I had to be able to understand how to ask that environment or that person to understand if that element of chaos existed in that environment. Does that make sense?
David : Yeah. I think you're spot on that it's societal, you know, it's kind of just creeped into societal norms. Like, it's almost like when you introduce yourself, or you see someone, Hey, how are you? You know, immediately you go to And then the answer is good. Now, we may or may not be good. But that's that's the appropriate greeting and response. I think in the work environment. How are you doing? Man? I'm really busy right now. And what we're kind of saying is, oh, well, I'm really successful. Look how busy I am.
Mary : Another like rewarded language,
David : right. There was a book that I read a couple years ago called “essentialism.” And they highlighted some of this where it used to be like a C suite, individual would say something like, yeah, I'm only getting four hours of sleep a night, because look at how much I'm working. And the currency of that has shifted to where sleep is super valued. And because rest and taking care of yourself has become super valued. And so it's become the opposite, where if you're a CEO of a company, and you can say, Well, I'm getting like eight, nine hours of sleep a night, that's what's telling people that you're successful, not that you're burning the candle at both ends. So to me, it partially all relates. So we're pulling it back to work in business and how we can be employers or, or leaders of teams. One is to recognize the chaos and start to implement the tools that we've talked through today. But also, then to create the environment and level of relationship that is safe for employees to do the same thing. And oh, by the way, it makes financial sense to do it when a team is if you see the tools and impact of rest. And therefore through rest, you actually get more productivity. Imagine if you can create the same environment for your work or when we're talking about relationally. Like seeking out people who can be sounding boards seeking out people who can help you feel safe in bringing chaos to one another. Imagine what employment can look like if you can kind of create the same thing. So you as an employer, or team leader, can do so much for your team to create the safe spaces because in work, we're just still relational beings, we're still interacting with one another. And I think that those tools are really great to look at.
Mary : Yeah, I think the takeaway I would encourage everyone to do is just simply ask yourself and ask someone or many that you relate with what was one of the last times they felt the most present and why. And I think that in itself you could also ask, you know what causes chaos? when you feel like you're in a flow or you're in the zone and suddenly something happens and it makes you feel like you're off the track. What's the essences of both of those things? Because that would allow you the self awareness in asking yourself, but also the interpersonal awareness and relating with these people that I think could be a gift in this time to all of us.
David : You were telling me a story about your sister, I think, and talking to her employer, they're like, I could never ask for that. And then you encouraged them to ask for that. And then the employer gave it to them.
Mary : Oh, well, I was talking to my cousin the other day, and she had to establish a boundary, a COVID related boundary, because the details had come through from the state about regulatory things that she would have to do in order to complete her work. And it made it so that this gig that she had coming up was pretty much totally unviable. But she had to let down someone for their event, which was already I mean, I think anyone having an event, whether it's a congratulatory event, a birthday event, a wedding or a trip, there's been so much let down right in that space right now. So she was feeling super compassionate to the fact that she's like, great, I'm going to be like, another layer of inconvenience for this person, as they're about to get, you know, they've already changed their wedding once and then now I'm pulling this out from under her feet. And she called me scared about what she had put out there. And it was nothing, there was nothing she could do. But it was also honoring her. And she felt relieved. And knowing that she could then no longer do this, because it didn't serve her personally. And so she calls me saying, her response is going to be this, this or this. And so what we immediately did is like, okay, let's talk through worst case scenarios, and then even in the worst case scenarios, then let's still think about your position. And how does your position still sit with you, even if the response is the worst it could be. And there was still this steadfast nature where like, if I'm coming from this present place of like, what actually feels good for me, I can trust that no matter what even the worst case scenario, this is what. And then as we were talking through this, she gets a response from this person and is completely taken aback and surprised that there was utmost compassion and the worst case, and it's almost like going to the worst case scenario, and just going there allows anything less than that to feel like a breath of fresh air, because it's not that big of a deal. And that's what I love about people is that we surprise each other all the time, sometimes for the worst, which can be chaos inducing, but for the most part, I think that when we do our own work around processing something, when we're trying to set a boundary or when we're trying to ask for permission for something, and we feel our own internal dialogue or with someone to validate you, because it takes time to be able to do it solo, then that's, that's actually the most potent amount of work, and then the feedback that you get, regardless of what that feedback is.
David : I think what I love about that story is also that her role in the story wasn't the leader, but it was the employee or the employed.
Mary : The contracted, exactly, so the power dynamic that we sort of talk about.
David : So it was still speaking up into. And I think that that's one of the things I tried to think through about leadership is it doesn't matter. It's not a pyramid, it's not you always lead down to others. But a true leader is someone who leads all the way around them, lead up lead in the peer relationship lead down. And so this was a way for her to personally create some boundaries that were healthy, play out the fears, so she could be prepared for what the worst case but then be put in that scenario was pleasantly surprised. So you can still lead up into, hey, this is chaos for me. And you can show your leaders above you what that conversation could be and it might be great. And then I think worst case scenario, it might not be also.
Mary : Then like, you know, like we're working on a logo for a podcast right now, and I keep telling the graphic designers that we work with, and one of my dear friends, like sometimes you don't even know your opinion until you see something or you experience something right. And that's those are opportunities for you to define your boundaries and to define what causes you chaos and what's sustainable and not sustainable. And that's why they always talk about you know, it's like, well, I wouldn't be here if I hadn't gone through all that. Well, yeah, because you do need some of those crappy situations in order to define and say like, that doesn't work for me. I didn't know when to work for me unless I had experienced that.
David : Well, great conversation as always. I think that there’s all these small examples of microtools. Mary, do you have maybe a resource, like, is there a place that you find helpful information for like microtools and practices?
Mary : Not one place in particular, but we’ll share some resources because they come from all angles. Right now, a resource that I would encourage anyone to go through is Deepa Chokra has done a couple of 21 day meditations for free online. This one is focused on the heath of the body and it’s a low requirement on time. We’ll share that too. That’s what I’m currently going through and I’m on day 9 and other than that, I think I’ve just been pulling together things over the last couple decades. I could share endless amount of resources but we really wanted it to feel like it could be easy to implement. We’ll share more. Check out our Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and our LinkedIn because we will be sharing a lot more of what we’re talking about here and then more that we didn't get to talk about as well.
David : Yeah. And we’re actually, we have up and created a third palace podcast playlist on spotify and apple music.
Mary : I’m so excited about that!
David : I think this topic is perfect. For me, music is a grounding space so there’s so many songs that can help calm me and create that safety. And give maybe, often give me words that I don't know how to form together. So music and poetry. So check that out as well. We’re here with you. I think that that’s the main thing. We’re all in this together. We talk so much about the relationship and seeking out people and even in this digital podcast form, we’re here with you. We’re in the midst of chaos. We’re trying to figure this out. We’re sharing our relationship with you and we’re learning from you as well. So getting through chaos is a relational activity.
Mary : Exactly. We’re super grateful to keep having these fun conversations and we hope that everyone has a moment of presence in even listening to this.
David : Thank you everybody
Mary : Be well
