Ep 42 - Diversity and Inclusion for Kids with Dr.Zabina Bhasin
Dr. Zee lives by her own mother’s motto that, “We are more similar than we are different. Our differences make us unique, but they do not separate us.”
As a mother of two, we explore how we can have diverse and inclusive conversations with our children, helping them grow to become global citizens.
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TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Zabina: I also feel like though there's been permission to be disrespectful, that's what I feel. I think that people have been observing the lack of respect and that's like-
David: It’s from the past four years.
Dr. Zabina: Well, it's beyond that. It's even before four years. You know, I feel like four years was… Here's the thing, this is what I'm saying and I'm saying it out loud. He's not the problem. There was already a problem. We had all this, we had all these prejudices, this anger, these resentments disrespecting each other. And then he said, here, I'm lighting the fire and it blew up. I'm not gonna blame him, I'm gonna blame us. We are at fault. Each individual human being in this country and I'm only going to start with this country, because I was on Australian TV the other night, and it's all over an world this problem. But we need to look at ourselves first, then we look in our homes, then we look in our communities. And then we look all around the world. Because honestly, nothing is going to change until we look at ourselves.
David: Well, that was just a little conversation that we were having before we got started with the interview and you can already hear just the wisdom oozing out of today's guest. Dr. Zabina Bhasin is a diversity and inclusion expert, child psychiatrist, and entrepreneur educating parents and schools on how to help the next generation become global citizens. As a speaker, CEO of Culture Focused Toys and Products, In KidZ and children's book author, she has been featured on ABC Good Morning America, Red Tricycle, Pop Sugar, Raised Parenting, and Thrive Global. A mom of two herself Dr. Z lives by her own mother's motto that we are more similar than we are different. And our differences make us unique, but they do not separate us.
[Intro-music]
Mary: We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David: It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered…
David and Mary: Through challenging, empowering, and engaging dialogue.
Mary: You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self, equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David: Thank you for listening.
Mary: We invite you in to the third place.
Mary: Today we welcome Zabina to the Third Place podcast. As we get started, why don't you go ahead and start by telling us about your background, and especially your work with diversity and inclusion with children?
Dr. Zabina: My name is Dr. Zabina Bhasin. I am a child psychiatrist. I am a DE&I expert. And an entrepreneur that has a company known as In KidZ. In KidZ creates diverse toys, products, and culture boxes to teach children about connecting with other cultures and traditions from around the world. We teach one country, one tradition, and one culture at a time. So, going into the question of what is diversity and what is inclusion. Diversity is accepting and respecting someone based on their characteristics, whether it's their race, culture, gender, their background. Inclusion is broadening that definition, and respecting people, and valuing people and their behaviors and their normalcies to welcome them to be a part of something or someplace. So, they are similar but different again. So diversity is very specific. Inclusion is very specific. So, in diversity, I take an example like you have a dinner party, diversity is inviting people to the dinner party. Inclusivity is making sure that everyone is enjoying themselves. That's really how you can call it simple.
So, it could even for your children hey, who are we inviting on our playdate and now are we sharing? Are we talking about our toys? Are we making sure our friends feel happy and welcome based off what they are and who they are is what inclusivity is? So I really dumb that down for you know, how do we talk about it as adults and how do we talk about it as children, you know? Because it's important because we have adults that we need to teach this to. And we have children that we need to teach this to.
David: Well, and Absolutely, I mean, maybe dumbing down is not the right way to say it because…
Dr. Zabina: Yeah. That’s what I thought too.
David: It's like it's not inclusive. I think it's healthy for all of us to realize that visual and to understand it from the same place. I don't think that's dumbing it down at all. I think it's really healthy picture. And so now we all have a good healthy starting point because we can relate to that. It's a relatable image and I love it.
Dr. Zabina: Well that's how you have to teach. You have to relate it to who you know and what you know. And again, look I chose my words incorrectly.
David: We’re all working on it. We’re all working on it.
Dr. Zabina: We're all working on it. And so David, what I loved that you just did was in a respectful manner really turned around and said you're saying the right thing and just a different way, and we need to change the words. We have to help each other. And by bringing this, like you said, understanding it in a way that we can all relate to. And so this is the starting point of us having this conversation is defining what it is, and how do we explain it to one another.
Mary: Yeah, you really do have to start with the definition. And even when I heard diversity versus inclusion, to me, the inclusivity part does feel like taking it one step further, which I think has been a common theme in some of the conversations that we're having. It's no longer, I have no words, here's me participating. It's no longer I'm not racist, here's me as anti-racist. And I feel like I can kind of see the similar relationship between diversity as sort of a launching pad and inclusivity as the actual place that you launch that you engage in the action of diversity.
Dr. Zabina: Right. Absolutely. That's exactly what it is. There's no middle ground anymore, you have to go through the path of it. And then we end up in belonging, which is where we all should be.
Mary: Right. So you said something to me once and I wrote it down, you said this work sustains oneness and in turn creates belonging. And, I really want to expand on that word, because I feel like even what we're experiencing right now, to me if we were to go back to one of the roots of anger is fear. And I think that fear can also be somewhat assigned to a lack of belonging. Can you expand on, what you mean by that, and how we have this conversation and understanding in the context of working with children too?
Dr. Zabina: So, I'm going to do it backward in the context of working with children first because that's where I specialize in. So when we have our children, I've said this over and over again, is that our children starting at the age of two years old, start noticing, mentally, you know, color, ears race, who we are what our parents are doing. So they start mimicking that. And, they're starting to see what is the norm of life? You know, like, if I talk to my husband in a certain way or if I talk to my children in a certain way, they're going to start seeing that to see that is the norm that we need to do. So first, we have to recognize that the fact that our children are seeing us right at two years old. So between two to seven years old, or six years old, they're starting to… It depends on when they start school, right. So they're starting to see what is happening in our home life.
And with that, I have to really emphasize the pack that we have to look at ourselves as parents or as anyone raising a child. It doesn't have to be a parent. It could be an uncle, aunt, it could be a cousin, it could be a grandparent. So, anybody who has a purpose in a child's life has to notice that they have to show these children or create something that they will mimic us and to say, we are being respectful, our words matter, we are taking charge of the fact that whoever we're talking to we're creating an inclusive world for them. Okay, so now they're seeing what our parents do and what we do in our homes. It's like what I say we look at ourselves first, and then we look at in our homes, right? So they've seen what's happening and as parents, and now they're seeing what's going on in our house, how does my dad treat somebody? How does my mom treat somebody?
And then you take that and they are now in school, Okay? So we're in a diverse world, right? And our kids are seeing kids from all races, all genders, even by genderism, like, you know, kids who are looking at themselves, and it's starting early now. By the age of five, six years old, kids are trying to figure that out too. So we are talking about them going to school and now talking within their peer groups at a very, very young age. And if they start talking to their peer groups, just as they are accepting them, just as they are not outside of, oh, you're Indian, you're a boy or girl or you're you know, from Australia or Africa or whatever, it's you're accepting them as a human being because they see that we're accepting them. Now we're sustaining oneness. Now we're like, okay, we're starting at a young age to try to create them to understand this world is just we’re each individual's where ourselves, and we are accepting you as we are. So now we're this oneness.
Now, in turn, how does that create belonging? Because as they keep growing, and they go into middle school because they're going to have peers who are going to fight them on this. You know, as you get older, they're going to be there. But they've already created this definition of respecting everyone and individually and valuing people. And they will start creating these worlds will, they'll start defending individuals. And they will start making sure that they are either talking about it going to someone to talk about it, asking the right questions, and creating a world in their peer groups of inclusivity. And now we've created belonging.
David: Yeah. And I think that, like, I'm going back to that table picture. So if diversity is inviting everyone to the table, inclusivity is making sure everyone has fun. Belonging is the table is a big party.
Dr. Zabina: Yeah, you got it. That’s it. That’s it.
David: We're all there. And, when everybody's having fun, it is a party and we all feel special to be there.
Dr. Zabina: David, you literally have taken my example because I didn't put the belonging with the party. But you're right that's it. And you know, I'm going to steal that from you. I'm just telling you.
David: The table analogy is something that I really gravitate towards anyway, just coffee and tea is part of food, right? My favorite part about coffee is, every culture drinks it, so many cultures produce it, and everybody's a little bit different. And it's really beautiful when we make these blends from all over the world and connect, right? And what I love about food is that we celebrate the differences among us really well in this food space. Yeah, we have Indian restaurants, we got Italian restaurants. And it's a safe place like we celebrate all these cultures all the time, right and food. And so that table analogy, that party analogy is still food-based, because it's really fun. And when we celebrate all of the different pieces, the variety is amazing. Every culture gets to be represented. And it's a blast, and people should be invited to the party. Come on, let's go like this is fun.
Dr. Zabina: I mean, so many cultures celebrate enjoyment and partying. I mean, we talk about, you know, Brazil and the celebrations Jamaica and their celebrations and India and their celebrations. And we're like, why don't we all do the same thing. We're celebrating life, you know? Why are we fighting each other on our own people? Like why are we fighting each other that you're like this and you're like that, whether it's religious or cultural or tradition? No, we're all celebrating. Christmas has become something that is non-religious throughout the world. I mean, I did this whole thing about how kids celebrate Christmas in different ways. But they're all kind of the same way because they're looking for, you know, that cultural aspect of the modernization of gifts and, and giving back and helping families and coming together. We all do that. What Diwali and Holi and all this about, it's because we're all coming together to celebrate something.
And what frustrates me, it's really that simple. It's just so that simple. And we're fighting each other on this simple conversation that 20 years from now, my kids have to go to school or they're walking around and they're like, you goddamn Indian person go home. She's going to be like, what are you talking about? My mom was born in Santa Monica and I was born in the valley, you know? She loves her culture and she loves and she wants to show it to the whole world. I don't want her to hide it. I don't want anyone to hide it. I want us to walk together to say we're …You know, and I go back to this when I started in kids. Do you guys remember Benetton? Like back in the day in the ‘80s and maybe I'm aging myself. The world of Benetton was apparel. It's still there. It's in the UK. But the world of Benetton had this back in the day all these young adults, different colors, different races in different garbs and their whole goal was to show that we are all one and it doesn't matter the clothes we wear.
Mary: Well, that's definitely ahead of its times. I'm looking at it now and seeing it and like loving it. Definitely unfamiliar, but I'm not a fashionista.
Dr. Zabina: This is what I was in elementary school. So I think for me, that picture was one of the pictures I wanted to throw for In KidZ. And if you go to the in KidZ website, we're all wearing the same thing actually. You know, we're wearing our In KidZ jackets and the kids are walking around, but they're all from a different world. And that's the picture I had when I started In KidZ. The world of Benetton was older generation children. I mean, not even children they were young adults, you know, in their 20s and 30s. And for me, In KidZ was let's get younger and do that.
Mary: Yeah.
Dr. Zabina: You know, initially when I started in KidZ or before I even started In KidZ, I went to my husband, I said, we're gonna do a whole clothing line. We're getting designers from all over the world. We're gonna have a brick and mortar, they're gonna all bring their clothes in and parents are going to be cool with putting their clothes. My husband looked at me said, “Yeah, we're not doing that. That’s a lot of money right now.” But the point was, is to have this acceptance of you can be whatever you want. Like Amara could wear a kimono and go to school? Who cares? You know? And it doesn't have to be her cultural garb. It has to be she feels comfortable in it, she enjoys it.
David: Yeah. And I keep just going back to that curiosity is the heart of it. Like, you know, why are you different? And it's like, oh, let me tell you it's still that curiosity and inviting spirit. And, you know, I think for me, as I've learned how to become curious, with other cultures and with other skin tones, like, you know, I'm not being asked to change my culture but it's so much fun to learn and to be curious. And I've been able to be curious and have had grace around the moments, right to ask the questions, right? So there's that grace piece as well. But I've learned so much, and it's really cool. And now my palette has expanded food, clothing, all of it.
Mary: Yeah, I also just like want to bring up because I feel like this is something that I tend to forget, but acknowledge the other day that diversity has to do with age and like body image as well. It's just something that I noticed the other day. I had gone to a website and had a shocking response to someone that was being featured that was bigger, and I loved that I could recognize that in that moment. And I even had someone ask us, they were like, they were like, oh, you know, are you making sure to represent diversity on the podcast? And their perspective or definition of diversity really was like because then I asked them, what does that mean? And it was like, as basic as Black versus White. And I was like, well, actually, we've represented people that are far older, we've represented male, female, we've represented this and this. And I think you know, I wanted to expand on that because I think that sort of felt like to me can get separated from diversity when it is also cut from the same cloth.
And, I'm noticing my little now four-year-old, you know, he'll have someone walk in, like, “Hey, look at that big boy.” And it could be height, it could be width it could be whatever, it could be a big head, it could be so many things. And I think those are the ways that he's navigating how he's making an understanding. And I think that the best thing that we can do is just ask him, what I do is ask him, “Oh, what made you say that? Or what made you think that?” And then that creates a conversation that does exactly what you're talking about David, which encourages the creative or curiosity and allows him to know that it's safe to have a little moment of dialogue, and then I can also understand where he's coming from. So I get to practice curiosity at the same moment.
Dr. Zabina: I love how you use the word curiosity. You know, and it's so important to say that because it's those that age group that that curiosity can go one way or the other. And it's us as parents, and again, I hate to say parents, but it's anybody raising a child or is in a child's life that takes that curiosity. And even friends, like my friends, have actually where Amara has said something specifically, as you said, you know, she'll sit there and be like, “Oh, you know, you're wearing glasses. I'm so sorry.” And this was like a dinner table conversation. And we were like, whoa, okay, so she said that. And in the end, like, it was her curiosity, she didn't know, it was good or bad. So we really asked her the question, so why are you saying, you're sorry about that you know? like, why is wearing glasses, something that you're upset about or telling him this, you know? And it was my husband, me and my best friend Emily, we were all sitting at the table. And it was her son, and he's two and a half. And he has an eye thing, but he's just wearing glasses. And, and so we really bought that.
But that's diversity to like you said like, it's, you know, and a lot of people confuse that as inclusivity. They'll say, oh, somebody is in a wheelchair, or they have a mental illness, those are inclusive people. That's not inclusivity. Inclusivity is taking that diverse group of people and making them feel belonged. And that's where you're making them feel like, again, David, our party thing, you know, like, we go back to that. So our children are seeing that kids when they go to school who are a little bit larger, a little bit smaller, shorter, because like Amara will say, “Oh, I'm taller than Lily is.” And it's like, you know, like, we go through that process. Some are tall, some are short, some have long black hair, some have blonde curly hair, it's now that point, it's that curiosity that they're talking about because they're recognizing it. And they're recognizing features. And I keep saying this over and over again, between two to six years old, guys, we got to catch them on this because that's when we're going to start having these conversations with them. And then they're going to get bigger and bigger as they get older. And it's their curiosity that's causing them to say it, but we need to kind of bring it back together to say, it's okay. Let's talk about this. Why do you feel this way?
David: How do we encourage their curiosity?
Dr. Zabina: Yes.
Mary: And it's not about just recognizing them or telling them that they're not allowed to recognize or name it, right? Because they're going to recognize it no matter what.
Dr. Zabina: Yes, yes.
Mary: So then yes, it's also creating the space that they can name it out loud and then engaging in conversation.
Dr. Zabina: Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to because they don't know the words, yet. They don't know what to say. They don't know. I mean, look, I'm not asking them to be politically correct. They are four. How are they supposed to know? You know, I mean, I'm pretty sure somebody is gonna call Leo one day four eyes and Amara and Lily are going to be like, we're going to beat you up because we're his sisters. You know, I can see that happening. But they don't know that. And we're going to recognize that and we're going to teach our children that this is the way how we recognize it and what do we say and why do we say it? You know?
And here's the thing, if we can do that, guess what they're gonna do? They're gonna teach that kid who said that. We've moved one step further by saying, you know? And I'm gonna tell you the story because I learned this actually late in life. My uncle, he's my mom's sister's husband so like a brother in law, from my mom's side. My father was a very big Mary I think I've told you this in the Sikh community here in Los Angeles. He was very well known. He was a, you know, freedom fighter, in ‘84 when that stuff happened at the Golden Temple. He was very involved within the community. Also on the world level, he was part of Mayor Tom Bradley's committees to help the Sikh community come into a, you know, level here in Los Angeles County area. He built the first temple.
But what happened was my dad wore glasses. And there was a conversation within our home, within our family, within our community and my uncle called him four eyes. These are two adult men. I must be nine, 10 years old at that point, okay? And I heard the story later in life. And I was like, whoa. And my dad was very well respected, you know? So my dad didn't say anything. And he had a minute, and my mom told me, this is what he said, “It’s great. I can see better than a lot of people.” That's all he said. And he walked away from the conversation. And, he turned around, and two days later, he called my uncle and he said, “I get you had some anger, there was something going on. But I gotta tell you, our kids were there. And our daughters were there. And tomorrow, if you want someone to say something to your daughter, and have that disrespect towards her, doesn't have to be four eyes. It doesn't have to be something but it could be a remark that you don't want your daughter to have because you want to raise these amazing Indian women to be amazing women, you got to change your words.”
And honestly, I know today, like, I have my thing with my parents, we all do. But there were these things that now inspire me to say my parents gave me this knowledge, this base to say, this is what you have to fight for. My parents made mistakes, they had their prejudices. I got a Black sister-in-law, who was like, “Girl, your mom really gave me shit for my life.” And in our family, you know, dating a Black person or dating a Muslim person or there was like this constraint. But today, my mom now recognizes her faults. She's 76 years old. But that's fine. It's her change now. And she fought for me.
Mary: Which is powerful though at that age.
Dr. Zabina: Yeah, at this age is recognizing that and I mean, her grandson's are her life, but that's just how she is. But like, my brother fought this.
David: This is a very different conversation maybe a later conversation. But, you know, one thing I have in the back of my mind with that whole regard to my parents, and everybody that I know, and their relationship with their parents, I'm like, okay, so are our kids gonna be on podcast talking about the way that we negative influenced all of our kids or have we, you know?
Dr. Zabina: You know, they are, they are going to, they're going to. But here's what they're gonna say, this time around. Our parents really made a difference. Yeah. And I've said this at the beginning of the podcast, and I'm gonna say this for the rest of my life. We are not leaving a world to our children that I'm 43 this year, that when my daughter is 30, something years old, she's gonna say, another little boy got beat up because of his hair, or his culture, or his religion, or there is a shooting because this person felt that in his workplace, he was being bullied and he had something already going on in his head, because words matter. These topics are going to change, and they're going to be normalizing how we need to treat each other. You know, our kids are going to say our parents built these platforms for us so that we can keep moving ahead and we're not moving behind. We're not fighting Martin Luther King's battle anymore.
Mary: Yeah.
Dr. Zabina: They learned from it and they moved ahead and now you know when Amara talks about Rosa Parks, it’s history of beautifulness.
Mary: Yeah, not history repeating itself.
Dr. Zabina: Absolutely.
Mary: So I'm wondering, you know, what are some of the most powerful books or toys or resources? I mean, I know that you know, so many obviously.
Dr. Zabina: I love this question. I do. I love this question.
Mary: You’re like, just checking the box.
Dr. Zabina: It's not even the box I mean, it's beyond the box too. Like I say, you know, there are so many books out there like if you go to our In KidZ website or you go to our In KidZ social media page, we're constantly doing like these, you know, now is the real thing, right, on books and on diverse books, you know, whether it's Asian American books, Black history books, European books, books on teaching about how we are actually similar or different. You know, go back to the basic like, same-different, different Sesame Street books these are the books that I started my kids with, you know? And she's beyond those now. I mean, she's like, I love these books, Mom, but I want to read Bindi and India, I want to read Suki Komodo. I want to read, you know? And Zane, you know, set a superhero. Like, they're constantly finding a different book that doesn't even associate with their culture. They're like, “Oh, my God, look at this Mom, you know, this is in Portugal.” And I'm like, “How do you know, Portugal?” I'm like “Yes, you know Portugal.” I have friends who are Portuguese. And she's like, you know when you do that box, we got to talk about it. And how are we going to do this, and I'm like, Yes, I'm here for you, whatever you guys want.
Again, I do our boxes, you know, bi-monthly. So I can only do so much at a time. But there's a process in this. And we have to keep planning these and resources, are books, games, dolls. Get your playrooms diverse. Look up all the different, you know, what we did was like in our country boxes, like Guatemala, we have the weaving baskets, we have, you know, these arts and crafts pieces that you could do. Our next box is, Jamaica, which is a huge surprise, it's really different than any one of our boxes. We’re actually introducing a trademark little piece for In KidZ that is now going to follow the children in every country, you know? So it gives them something to connect with, we're introducing an owl. And it's called the Owl of Knowledge. And this owl of knowledge is going to not only go through every country, but we're also going to talk about diversity and inclusion and belonging and all of this, you know? We’re going to create these books as well for the Owl of Knowledge. And you know, I'm in the process of writing our own children's books, you know, and it's going to be all about this, but they’re stories.
And you know, my daughter and son are part of this because they tell me their questions, and then that instigates me. Okay, let's go find a board game. There's this amazing board, Neighbors. It's for children between the ages of three to seven years old. And it's a board game of how you talk about neighbors, about their culture, about their... And I was like, this is awesome. But there are also games for older kids. There's a deck of world cards that talks about different general knowledge questions about the world, about their food, about what their dialects are, and our language cards in our books. Okay, so there are 20 words that kids need to know, all over the world and we put those language cards in every book for that.
David: That's so cool. There’s a song that for sure will go with this and it's called ‘Crowded Table’. I don't know if you've heard it. But it's these five women called the high women, all country artists and they wrote this beautiful song about what it looks like to have everybody at a crowded table and that everybody's included. So you need to check that out.
Dr. Zabina: Can you send me that? Yeah. It's called ‘High Women’? Oh my gosh, you know, I'm gonna make a reel from that, right?
Mary: I'll do it with you.
Dr. Zabina: Okay, let's do it. Mary, I'm on that let's do that.
David: It's a gorgeous song. And I think it's just captures everything you know, that table image is just such a beautiful place where we have our diversity, our inclusion, and our belonging all represented at the table.
Dr. Zabina: I love it. I love it.
Mary: And then the oneness.
Dr. Zabina: Yes, the oneness. Well, the oneness comes if you have oneness already you create a belonging.
David: Yeah. Well, we knew this one was going to be amazing and it absolutely was.
Dr. Zabina: We are starting the Stop Hate Campaign. It's literally going to be launching, and we're starting to create a process of it within this week. I've just started an IGTV series on it. I did the first one, which was more of my emotional feelings behind it. But we are going to connect with a nonprofit. We are creating resources to help not only within our homes, within our communities, within our schools, and then going and taking it. And I think the analogy that David you and I and Mary have talked about today is being at the dinner party table is really the analogy we're going to use to stop hate. And again, I'm constantly saying this it is not about Asian hate, Black hate, gender hate, or any biases or prejudices. It is really hated and I go back to Jane Eliot's one of the most amazing women in the 1960s who did her experiment has brown eyes blue eyes, and I go back to her quote, “Prejudice and hate is learned. And if you can learn something, you can unlearn something.” So we're not only teaching the next generation we are teaching to unlearn other generations who already have it in their head. And that's what the stop hate campaign is.
Mary: Z, would you mind telling everyone where they can connect with you?
Dr. Zabina: Yes. In KidZ his website is www.I-N-K-I-D-Z co.com. Our social media handles are at @In KidZ co. We are on Facebook and on Instagram, and Twitter, and Pinterest. There are so many of them now, but they're all the same, they’re@ In KidZ co. I personally have my Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. I don't do much of that. But Instagram is really mostly where I'm at where people can contact me is at Zabina_Bhasin_MD. And, I'm open you can email me. You can talk to me. And Mary I think knows this enough I am a big texter. I am all of you know, I'm a mama bear for our Chai Mamas group, which is our South Asian women's organization. Because I'm about you know, just making sure I'm there and present and mindful for everybody. So I'm very open to talking with these conversations. Again I'm the brown lady you want to ask those questions to that you never want to ask anyone else because I will answer them for you.
Mary: I love that. With that you know we can end on you know, she's the brown lady you want to touch base with and she's my brown lady. Thank you so much Z. This was an absolute treat. Thank you.
Dr. Zabina: Oh, thank you, guys.
Mary: Be well!
Song-Crowded Table: By The Highwomen
You can hold my hand
When you need to let go
I can be your mountain
When you're feeling valley-low
I can be your streetlight
Showing you the way home
You can hold my hand
When you need to let go
I want a house with a crowded table
And a place by the fire for everyone
Let us take on the world while we're young and able
And bring us back together when the day is done.
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