Ep 39 - Where Infertility and Community Intersect with Ali Prato of Infertile AF
In recognition of National Infertility Awareness Week (April 18-24), we wanted to bring in a different perspective of working through Infertility. What we have learned is that everyone’s family planning journey is very unique. Many’s stories end with much joy, but also, so many stories are extremely difficult to live through. And, unless you have struggled with infertility or with a pregnancy loss, you don’t realize how common it is and how uncommon it can be to welcome a healthy baby home.
Thankfully, today’s guest Ali Prato (host of the podcast Infertile AF) has helped create community around infertility, giving people a way to talk through and share their pain with others. This support system is a beautiful representation of The Third Place, allowing space for dialogue around one of our least talked about topics.
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TRANSCRIPT:
David: Before we dive in and get started with today's episode, we wanted to take a moment and acknowledge the relief that we feel from the news that Derek Chauvin was found guilty in George Floyd's murder. You know, often on the Third Place Podcast, we talked about how truth can be found in the middle, the messy gray, where two different people can bring different perspectives to the table and learn from each other through humility and curiosity. But with that said, we also acknowledge that there are truths that are found in the edges. They are truths that are found in the black and white. And this is one of those moments, someone did murder, someone. Someone used excessive force and took the life of another human being. And, we feel relief, that there was a conviction.
And, I can't even imagine what the Black community is feeling right now. A community that probably expected to be honest and acquittal, because it's just happened so many times. So, I can't imagine what the Black community in America feels, and just the sense of relief that they might feel anyone that's a person of color or a minority in any way. In a news program yesterday, I even saw a police officer comment that they felt relief. They’re not interested in working with this type of person in their ranks either. So, I don't want to say that justice has been served. But I am grateful, at least in this one brief moment and maybe for the first time justice was served. And with that, our nation can take at least one collective sigh of relief.
[Intro-music]
Mary: We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David: It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered
David and Mary: Through challenging, empowering, and engaging dialogue.
Mary: You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self, equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David: Thank you for listening.
Mary: We invite you in to the third place.
Mary: Hey, hey, thanks for coming to the third place if you're new with us, welcome. It's an inviting place David would say and I would do too. And if you're not new, if you're one of our OG thank you so much. The support over the last nine months since we started has been tremendous, like, seriously, really humbling, and we are really grateful.
David: Yeah, last week's conversation around infertility was just such a beautiful topic and episode. We had so many people reach out through email, and through our Instagram feed about sharing it with other people that they know that have a similar story. I think you know, what we learned in last week's episode. And today's episode with Ali is just that everyone's journey around having kids is just so unique and so different. And of course, it is a hard conversation it can be especially when we talk about pain and loss. So, you know, thank you for engaging with us in this space I think it's been really just fantastic.
Mary: Yeah. And I mean, just like what David said, everyone has a different version of how they created or started their family or how that went. And you know, Nathalie's story and Ali’s story both end in pretty joyous occasions. Whereas that's not always the case. And something that we're really focusing on here in the Third Place is providing as many perspectives and experiences to one topic, and that that's the complexity of the human experience that we're trying to press into. And that's often pretty awkward. So, not only are we doing these two episodes on infertility, we are going to do some future episodes that we're really looking forward to, and how infertility led to the adoption and otherwise. So, I'm looking forward to that and I love that we're really trying to take all perspectives into play as we have these chats.
David: Yeah. And I mean, one of our listeners emailed who has had infertility issues and tried IVF. And for their family, they've decided, you know what, we don't want to do adoption, we're just going to be a family of two. And so, that's a new perspective, I think that we should look at bringing in. So you know, one of the things that we want to do with these episodes is kind of introduce the conversation but then make it interactive. And we've just started this, but one thing I've really loved is doing Instagram lives. So this week at 5:00 pm, Eastern and 3:00 pm Mountain Time, Mary and I will be on Instagram Live. And, that's a great spot to keep this conversation going. Some of our episodes will be on Clubhouse. Usually will be on Instagram Live every Thursday at 2:30 Mountain at 4:30. Eastern, just so we can create that space to keep the conversation going.
Mary: Yeah, we're calling it Co-host Happy Hour since a lot of this has to do with the fact that beverage is a catalyst for conversation. So, being that our career has been in beverage, both David and I, that's how we met. We've been talking about our favorite beverages, our favorite teas, our favorite cocktails, mocktails, you name it. And, we get to share a little bit of beve and talk about what is current. This last go at it, David got to share his own experience with infertility and some of what you and Beth your wife learned in that journey and how that looked for you. And I just like I love that we get to kind of interview each other too sometimes.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Mary: So check us out at Third Place Podcast on Instagram, we're there a lot, but especially on Thursdays for our Co-host happy hour, you can also support us on Patreon. Patreon has been an incredible community, we really want to engage more on there, there's a wide variety of ways that you can engage with us. But it really starts at just $5 a month. We want you guys to help us participate in the conversations that we're having, deciding other topics that we should bring on. We have a swag line, it's a really cool swag line. It has all these cool different designs about our tagline feed well. And then it ranges up to some of our super fans, you know, getting coffee and tea in the mail from us that's been curated from La Terza artisan coffee, and our tea partners. To having one on one chats with us and getting more and more merchandise and engagement in what we're all about at the Third Place and how we can bring more people into these conversations in the gray.
David: Yeah, it's really a fun space just because, you know, to be able to create the space for these conversations, but then to actually engage with them.
Mary: Yeah, yeah. And I guess the last thing that we'll ask of you is check out our show notes. We are doing a survey and we're gonna keep the survey running for a little bit. There are only three questions. It'll only take you probably, I don't know, maybe 30 seconds. And we're just wanting to know what have you liked so far? What did you not necessarily love? And what do you want to hear more of? Click our show notes to check out our Patreon page and to fill out this tiny, tiny little survey that will take you no time but will mean a whole lot to us.
David: So being that it's National Infertility Awareness Week, as we mentioned, we wanted to continue the conversation from a different perspective. And we're so happy to bring Ali Prado on to the podcast. Ali is the founder and host of Infertile AF, the podcast. And she's the co-founder of the Fertility Rally. Her podcast was born in March of 2019 because she wanted to let her fellow TTC sisters know that they are not alone. And if you're like me, you didn't know what TTC was, until I just now Googled it, trying to conceive. You'll hear this in her story. We heard in Nathalie's story.
You know, one of the beauties of where we're at today as a society is we have platforms like podcasts, like social media, where we can take a topic that didn't have space to find community. And, Ali has done such a great job of creating a community of support for so many people on this journey of infertility. She co-created Fertility Rally to build the community, this content hub, and event site. And really she built it because she wished it had been around when she was going through secondary infertility. So let's welcome Ali of the infertile AF podcast to the third place.
Mary: Ali, thank you so much for being here.
Ali: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you both.
Mary: Yeah, we are too. And you know, as you're a fellow podcaster you have the podcast Infertile AF which was my first introduction to infertility podcasts. And that was really, I was seeking out understanding how to be in a relationship with one of my friends that was going through her IVF journey and I reached out on a community that we're both a part of, and then that's how I discovered your podcast.
Ali: What a good friend you are to do that, you know? I mean, really, that's awesome.
Mary: Well, it's so good. So I mean, just a shameless plug that everyone listening definitely has to move over to listen to Ali’s podcast, but before we really jump in can you give us the lowdown of your story with infertility?
Ali: Absolutely. So, I had my daughter, who is now 11 when I was 35. And, we didn't have any problems getting pregnant with her. My husband and I, we've been together since we were in high school which is crazy, but we didn't get married till I was 27. And then we moved to New York, like a big city change from Chicago. So we didn't start to try to have kids for a while, like until right before we had my daughter. I didn't know anything about my fertility. I didn't know anything about infertility. I honestly didn't even know really what IVF was. This makes me sound like a complete idiot but I honestly thought it was like, if you want to have multiple children, you do IVF. I thought of like octo mom or somebody that wanted like… Which is so ignorant and I admit it. And I'm so embarrassed that I even knew that. But just giving you the perspective of like, I just didn't know anything about infertility or any of that.
So we had my daughter, thankfully, and it was a pretty uneventful pregnancy in a good way. I had something called placenta previa, which meant that the placenta was blocking the cervix. So I had to have a scheduled C-section when it came time to have her but thankfully, it went, well, she was healthy, there were no other complications. That can be a pretty serious thing if you don't have the right care or they don't know about it, or something ruptures or something. But thankfully, mine was smooth. So, that really didn't have anything to do with my infertility. But again, it just goes to show I'd never even heard of what that was until I had it. So I think an overarching theme we can talk more about this, too, is just like the lack of knowledge that we have about our own reproductive systems and our own bodies, which is something that I've been trying to get involved with making a change for the generations now that are growing up, including my daughter.
David: Yes. To add to that, like the first time my wife and I were pregnant, like all of the things like hundreds of small little things all add up to what makes a successful pregnancy. And, you know, you just don't know, right? All of these things are factors that that will determine the health of a pregnancy.
Ali: Absolutely. We talk all the time on my show and just in general, you know, you're taught all along, like I was taught sex education, it was like, don't get pregnant. It’s so easy, you have sex once you're gonna get knocked up. That is so not the case. And I really think it's a disservice to people to not tell them, there's a very small window. It’s actually very hard to get pregnant. It's kind of a miracle that when it does happen. But anyway, back to what was going on with me. So we had my daughter, and then we didn't start to try for the second kid for a couple of years. And again, had I known that at 35 your reproductive, you know, success rate really kind of plummets because of egg quality and all that we would have started to try sooner. But having no idea we waited a couple of years. And then I started having problems. And I found myself with what was called secondary infertility.
Again, a term I had never even heard of. And even when I was going through it, they weren't calling it that. It was just, you know, repeat pregnancy loss. I’d had four miscarriages kind of back to back to back. And you know, nobody had ever used that term with me until after I joined the Instagram community and started what I'm doing now. And again, we can talk more about that. But anyway, so I had these repeat losses between my daughter and our next kid. And we finally agreed to go to a reproductive endocrinologist who told me that I was a perfect candidate for IVF because he did an ultrasound and was like, you've got lots of eggs, which is great for your age, I think I was 39 at the time, 38. But he said the egg quality is poor. So actually your body is doing the right thing. You know, it's getting rid of these pregnancies that are not healthy, which is why I was losing the baby's chromosomal abnormalities. So he said, you know, we do IVF and we pick a good egg and you make a healthy embryo, we can test the embryos, make sure they're healthy, you should be good to go. So I was like, awesome, great.
So that's what we did. And this is not without a lot of drama and struggles and you know, my husband wasn't on board for a while and it took a lot of convincing. So basically, once we agreed to do it, you know, I did all the stims and I went through the protocol and everything was going well. Did my egg retrieval, I ended up with five embryos that were healthy enough to test so we did genetic testing, and then we got the genetic testing results and only one of the embryos was healthy. So four of them had abnormalities. One was healthy, so we decided to do a frozen egg transfer the following month. We did that and it worked. Which, again is absolutely insane that it worked on the first track because it's very rare that that happens. But it did. And I had my son, December 2015.
So basically, I am a journalist, you know, I've worked in magazines and websites, my whole career. I'm a writer. And so I decided, while I was going through this, I was having so much trouble finding support. I couldn't find any good books that I could relate to. Podcasts weren't really a thing. You know, even Facebook groups, I wasn't finding kind of like my people that had the same kind of, you know, outlook as me or were going through the same things as me. So I was really struggling to find community. So I remember finding one book one day online and was called “Every Drunken Cheerleader: Why Not me?” And I was like, I love that title because it was like about, you know, how hard it is to get pregnant.
But unfortunately, the book wasn't that great. So then I was like, oh, maybe I should write a book. So I started writing a book. This is after I had had my son because I had a lot of PTSD from the whole trauma of infertility. But once I was finally ready to kind of start talking about it, I decided, you know, a couple of magazines had asked me to write essays about what I'd gone through. So I did that. And that kind of got my foot in the water of like, okay, maybe I should be talking about this more. Nobody’s really talking about this. And, so I wrote a book proposal, and I started shopping it around. And you guys, I got so shut down. Everywhere I went, I was meeting with these great agents, and, you know, publishing houses, and they were all just like, “This is great, you know, great writing, great storyteller, but nobody's gonna buy this. Nobody wants to talk about this.” Which is crazy.
And this was only like, four years ago. I mean, really, it's like not that long ago. And so much has changed since then, thankfully. But I was like, “Are you kidding me? Nobody would buy these books. And they were just like,” “I don't think they're going to sell, we don't think we're going to make money.” So I didn't end up doing the book. But I had an epiphany one day when I went to interview somebody for Rolling Stone magazine. And I was on my way back from the interview. And I was like, oh, I love interviewing people. And I was like, oh, duh I should just do a podcast. Because then I don't have to wait for somebody to greenlight my project. And I can just do a podcast and instead of writing a book, it'll be like, you know, people telling their stories.
So, the next month I launched my podcast, the first episode was me telling my story because I felt like, if I'm gonna ask people to get vulnerable, and like, walk the walk, I'm gonna have to do it first. So, I’ve told my story, and all of its messy, embarrassing parts, speaking of awkward conversations. And then every episode since then, I've had a different person, or sometimes a couple of people, like I'll have a couple or like I had best friends on ones who are going through some sort of not only infertility but just reproductive challenges. So it could be like a single mother by choice who has to go through IVF sperm donation. Or, you know, I just interviewed a woman who is with a trans person, so they're doing IVF. I basically want to just share these stories and let people know that no matter what they're going through, they're not alone.
And you know, I'm on 110 episodes now. And it's just been the greatest thing I feel like I've ever done. Like, I'm so passionate about it. I've met the most interesting people. It's been so sad sometimes. It’s been really uplifting sometimes. You know, it's not always a happy ending. But it's just been really cool to get to know so many people and realize that so many people are having trouble. And yeah, that's kind of the long-winded answer to the podcast.
Mary: It's great. And I remember, you know, the phrase, secondary infertility was new to me too. And, I want to ask you, so what comes up for you, when people are like, okay, you had a healthy pregnancy, you know, who are you to want another one, right? Like, what's the experience for you, and what emotions come up when people are maybe judging your decision or desire to go for another child? Being that it'll be expensive it'll be really traumatic to you to your body to your partnership? Can you kind of speak to that?
Ali: It's such a good question. And you know, we talked about this all the time at Fertility Rally, which is the other company that I found it, which is a community of people who are going through this. But you know, it's funny, because I never got any direct comments from anybody saying something like that but you could kind of feel the judgy like. And I will say, even my husband a little bit was like, we've got one kid. You know, he's an only child so he wasn't as passionate about wanting the second child as I was. I could not shake it. I was like, I'm going to do everything in my power to have this kid, even to the point where we were, you know, my husband and I were not doing well, like, we got to a point at one point where we were like, are we going to make it? And I was like, I don't know.
I was so mad at him. We were constantly fighting. It was really, really hard. I don't think he liked seeing me in so much pain. And he was kind of like, why are we doing this, we don't need to be doing this. You know, we've got Eva our daughter, she's amazing. And I was like, I know. And I remember saying to him, I wish I didn't want this so badly. But I can't not want it. And I couldn't change my mind or my heart. Like I wanted it so badly. And I knew that we were like, meant to have another kid. I just knew it. And I'm like welling up because five and a half years later, it's so emotional for me. And again, it's like the PTSD of going through all this. You know, I wish I could have said, “You’re right. Let's not do this. It's too hard.” But I couldn't say that I just couldn't.
Mary: Yeah, when you know something, so intuitively, and that it's a purpose of yours. And now that you have your son, it's so clear, right? But in the process, as painful as it is, I'm sure that that's hard. Because not only are you putting yourself through so much, you're also having to have the strength to like back your decision all the time. So to me, it's like that sounds like a really hard thing to juggle at the same time where like, you're also probably fighting your own internal doubts because it sucks and it hurts. And yet, you have to be your best advocate for even your partner and everyone around you.
Ali: 100% there was like an internal struggle, because it was just like, if I didn't want this, we wouldn't be going through any of this shit. It would be okay. And I did start seeing a therapist who, you know, basically was getting me to the point where she was like, if you're a family of three, you're gonna be okay. And I was kind of like, coming around to that, and it would have been okay. It really would have been okay. And you know, when we did IVF, we had agreed, like, we were going to do one round. And that's it. So if it hadn't worked, we would have closed that chapter and it would have been okay. It absolutely would have been okay. But I mean, obviously, I'm so happy that it did work. But it was not without the drama. And you know, relationship woes and a lot of …Yeah.
And one other thing I will say about secondary infertility, because back to your question, sorry a lot of people in the infertility community don't know if they belong, you know, if they're going through secondary infertility, because they're like, well, it's not as bad as primary infertility. Or I feel kind of guilty that I'm being greedy. Or there is judgment sometimes. And what we always try to say is A, this isn't like the pain Olympics, nobody needs to compete for who's in more pain. And B of course you belong here. Like, I don't think you can compare. It's like apples and oranges, absolutely. But it is still really, really hard. So think you know, as women, we sometimes do ourselves a disservice by saying, well, I might have lost my baby, but I was only a couple, you know, four weeks along. But that's bullshit, like, a loss is a loss.
David: Yeah, and all of these experiences have led you to be the guide. You know, that you tried to find the resources but who better to tell the story and share the experiences of relationship issues of the secondary experience? Because you've had those experiences. My wife and I, we two boys now three-year-olds, three and one. And prior to our firstborn, we had four miscarriages, including one stillbirth. And I think for me that what caught me by surprise well and her too, was, we had no idea, just like you that all of these other people had complications, so many people that we knew that had these, you know miscarriages as well. And it's like, you know why? Until that happens, we had to go through the experience and then all of a sudden, the world opened where there were all these other people that had this in common, unfortunately. Why is it so awkward to talk about this? Like, why didn't it come up in sex-ed, when we could really use this information so we could be prepared to even know that there are may be questions to ask in the future?
Ali: Right. I don't know. I really don't know. I think it was just, you know, back in the day, it was almost like the Scared Straight mentality where it was just like, it's complicated. We don't need to get into all that. We'll just say just don't have sex. It's just easier. You know, and I kind of get that you do want to put the fear of God into people who are like, up to no good. But yeah, I mean, it would be nice if there were some sort of baseline test that every woman at 25 or whatever went through just to see like, what are your levels? What is HSG? What is an ovarian reserve? You know, just terms just knowing things about your own body.
David: And, yeah, I mean, again leaning into our experiences, you know, I'm like, why didn't the OB tell us about X, Y, and Z. But in fact, the complications my wife was having weren't things that they thought were medically important or of significance. And we had to only go to the specialist and he goes, “Yeah, I mean, it's not been tested yet but here's X, Y, and Z it’s pretty straightforward from here.” So even our OB wasn't a good source of information, we had to go to the specialists. And from him on, it was pretty straightforward we had to do some things, but it for him, it was very black and white. So, even for us our experience, the OB wasn't the greatest source of information.
Ali: Wow, that's interesting. I mean, I will say it's, you know, it has changed thankfully, even in the last couple of years with, there are so many wonderful physicians and REs and OBGYNs out there who are like, on TikTok, and doing these… You know, like my friend, Natalie Crawford, Dr. Natalie Crawford, who's amazing, just did like your period in 60 seconds and did like a little video. And it explained what happens and what are the different, you know, phases. And I was like, “Oh.” Like even me at 46 now, like, I just learned something new. So I'm glad that because I know my daughter gets a lot of her information on TikTok. So I'm glad that you know, people are out there and using social media in that way. Because I do think it will hopefully help this generation that's coming up, you know, have more knowledge.
Mary: Yeah. And power to them too. I mean, it's like having to do any marketing for any company I know how courageous of an act it is. And I think it's so cool to see these medical professionals be on that platform really meeting people where they're at and making it playful. because I think that that's like the best way to understand stuff that is a whole new language that's really intimidating otherwise. So I have a question for you. So I have a lot of guilt around the fact that I was a one-and-done pregnancy, like the second we decided to not, not try, we were successful. And now we're not convinced that we'll have another one. I had postpartum depression. And you know, he's four now and we're still like, just trying to navigate life again.
And a lot of times, I want to not speak about my own experience to protect the person that is having the struggle with infertility. And, I just want from your perspective, like, what's the best way for me to engage in those conversations? I don't need to make it about myself. I'm okay with sort of setting that. And I think maybe you know, it just comes down to listening. But if there's anything else, I think that that's really helpful for those that are navigating, supporting those that are in this journey, especially when we can't relate and that it then brings up our own guilt around the ease that came with our own conception.
Mary: Yeah, it's such a good question, Mary. You know, it's so tricky. And this community of people who are dealing with infertility are in so much pain. There’s so much pain going on. And there's so much sensitivity. And I've learned that just through my own social media stuff, you got to be very careful of, what's triggering, and what can you say and what can you not say? And, I get it. So in answer to your question, I think if you're trying to support someone who's going through it, I think the best thing to do is just say… I'll say it a few different ways like at first, there are some things you should not say, which are like, well, at least you know, if they had a loss, “Well, at least you know, you can get pregnant. “At least it was early.” Or like, “At least you have one kid.” Like things like that nothing that starts with at least I feel like is ever helpful. It's just hurtful. Even if you're trying I know people are coming from a good place.
So I think the better way to go about it is just to say, “I am here to listen, what would you like me to know? I know this is hard for you what what's going on emotionally with you? What are you feeling?” Or like, “I'm going to make dinner for you? When can I drop it off?” You know, stuff like that. That's just like, I'm here. I'm listening. Try not to judge because you never know what somebody is going through. So I think those would be the kind of the broad strokes for that one.
Mary: Yeah, I think there's a helplessness that comes from my relationship to women in that journey because I feel like you know, they go through their first round of IVF. And then, you know, for example, it was unsuccessful, then sort of building themselves up to do it again. And I want to support in that. And then, you know, let's say that happens again and again. And like, I feel like you're just scratching a wound over and over. And, I think I said in our podcast last week that published that I get really protective. Like, I just want to support them. But at the same time, I'm like, oh, it's hard to witness someone in pain and feel like you can't do anything about it. And, that's sort of what I'm recognizing is something that I need to sit with. But that's not that I then share that with them or put that on them on top of it. But that is definitely my experience is this protectiveness and this helplessness of just wanting to take them out of pain?
Ali: I think it's totally normal and acceptable to say, “I don't know what to say. And I'm so sorry. But I'm, you know, just being honest with you. I wish I could know what to say.” Even saying that you don't know what to say, is better than not saying something at all. And I think David, this might go back to what you were saying kind of a little bit earlier about why people don't talk about this, because people don't know what to say.
David: Right. Well, and yeah, I mean, I was listening to what Mary was saying about just feeling helpless and by saying, I don't know what to say, it even just acknowledges the helplessness. Like, I'm just gonna put it on the table, I feel helpless. And I don't know what to say. And that's definitely an awkward thing.
Ali: Or even just like, “I love you, and I'm here. And I don't know what to say beyond that.” I think is better than trying to… You know, like, my husband would always try to make it better or fix it. I'm like, “I don't want you to solve me. I just want you to give me a hug and let me sob on your shoulder.”
David: And that's the stereotypical guy who just says like, “Okay, cool. I'm here to solve it. Well, how do we do it?” Instead of no, sitting here in silence is the thing I need.
Ali: Yeah, yeah. I remember after I had my fourth miscarriage, I was literally, sobbing so hard that I started laughing because I was hysterical. And I was like, pounding the floor. And I remember I made myself laugh, because I was like, I look like I'm like, in a movie right now. Like, this cannot be real life. This is ridiculous. But sometimes you just have to feel all those fields.
Mary: Well, it makes me wonder about the fact that you had a girl and how old was she when you had your son?
Ali: She was six.
Mary: So, clearly, there's a time where your child is witnessing you going through not only your round of IVF, but it sounds like miscarriages in between. What were your conversations like with her and how did you navigate those cycles of grief with her witnessing?
Ali: Yeah. We didn't so much. Like she didn't really know what was going on. I've obviously talked to her a lot, you know, since then, she's much older now. But at that age, you know, I kind of tried to hide it. Like I wasn't, you know, doing the pounding on the floor and screaming in front of her because I didn't want to scare her. And you know, nobody wants to see their mom in pain. Not that I was like, not wanting to talk to her about I just didn't think that it was she was ready for it or would understand her. I didn't think it would be helpful at that point. I mean, I knew that I would always circle back around and tell her everything I had gone through. So yeah, we didn't really get into the details of it. When I would go to the doctor, I would just kind of say “Mommy has a doctor's appointment, you know, we're trying to have…” I did say like “We're trying to have another baby and I have to go to a lot of appointments to try to make it happen.” So I kept it kind of on that level.
Mary: Yeah, it makes me think of the COVID conversation. You know, my kid is has been from three to four during this last year. And I also haven't gone into the details of it it's more just like we wear a mask now, you know? Because then it just becomes more fear-based. I feel like at the age that he was that it didn't help me didn't help him. And that's been really helpful. So I feel like I can relate to that in that conversation where it's like there's a certain level that you can give them insight without making them really participate in the storyline that it's going to affect their emotional wavelength too.
Ali: Yeah. I mean, I think so much of it at age is you just want them to feel safe. And I think having her see some of the things I was going through she wouldn't feel safe she would feel scared. So that's why I didn't want her to see like the real ugly shit that was going on. But I will say and just a quick aside she did have this weird psychic moment though when I had a miscarriage once. And hopefully, this isn’t TMI or too much TMI, but I had had a miscarriage like in like the toilet basically like lots of blood and stuff. And, you know, flushed cleaned everything up, and then later that night she came in and she goes, “Mommy, why is there a baby girl in the toilet?” And I was like, “What?” And she's like, “A baby ghost. I see a baby girl ghost.” And I was like, “Oh my God.” And, we hadn't said anything about it in front of her. Maybe she overheard something and kind of put two and two together. But it was one of those moments where I was like, “Whoa, weird.”
Mary: I fully appreciate those moments. I think that our children have the capacity to connect or to receive things that-
David: To see, yeah.
Mary: Yeah to see.
Ali: Yeah, I totally believe in that stuff too.
Mary: Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, not shocked by it I mostly moved. I love it.
Ali: Yeah, it was cool. It was kind of a cool moment.
David: Well, we've talked about, you know, why don't we talk about this? How do we talk about it with those that are friends? I mean, we're just a couple of weeks away from Mother's Day. One of the questions I have, you know, this probably will be heightened for women that are going through infertility, whether it's for the primary or secondary. Like, how can we be supporting in that season? What does it look like? Can someone who's never going to be able to have kids like, how do we talk to them on Mother's Day? How do we say, and be present in that space?
Ali: You're so sweet to even ask that. Honestly, it is tricky. You know, it's very triggering for millions of people. I think that again, kind of just, if somebody has had a loss, you know, I think it's good to acknowledge, like, you're always going to be that baby's mother. You know, if it's a good friend of yours. I know, there's a lot of campaigns on Instagram, where it's like, you know, saying their baby's names and writing their names down. And a friend of mine who had a loss, an infant loss, was like, “Nobody ever says her name, and it pisses me off. And it hurts me so much more than they would ever know. They just don't even acknowledge her.” And I think it's because, again, awkward, right? You don't know what to say. But I think that's something you could say is if you know somebody who has had a loss, whether they have other children or not just says, “You are a mother, you always will be a mother to that baby, or those babies.”
You know, I think, for someone who's going through it, that might be listening, I would say protect your heart. You know, maybe don't go on social media, those couple of days where everybody's talking about Mother's Day and showing their cute pictures of their kids. Because that can be really hard. You know, it's okay to do what you have to do to protect yourself and to feel, you know, like taken care of. So if that means shutting off social media for a couple of days, I think that's a good recommendation. But you know, I don't know, it is tricky. And I'm still kind of learning myself what's right and wrong to do. But I think not acknowledging it is harder than saying like, this might be a hard day for you. And I'm here.
Mary: Yeah. So being that you've interviewed, it sounds like well over 100 women, is that right and some men?
Ali: Yeah.
Mary: Who has experienced infertility? So would you then say that one of the themes is, you know, at least engaging in the conversation and having compassion around it? Is there any other themes of that you've noticed over those, those conversations that you feel like, you know, what, this is really valuable for people to know about our experience and infertility and how they can support us?
Ali: Yeah, I mean, I think it's also really great too, you know, if you're going through it, to find people who get it, who have been going through the same thing that you have. So like seeking community, finding your people finding your tribe. You know, that's why my business partner and I started Fertility Rally, which is the community, like I said earlier, where people can come and, you know, connect with other women who get it. Or like, if you're on Instagram, searching, like a hashtag, like secondary infertility, and you'll see who else is posting about that, and you can connect to people that way.
On the flip side, I think it's okay not to share if you don't want to. You know, we have probably over 300 members now, and we have people who come to our support groups, weekly and never talk and that's totally fine. You know, they just want to be in the room, or on the Zoom with people who, you know, have similar experiences. So I think that I would never pressure somebody to share their story. I think the people who are out there doing it, that's wonderful. But if you don't want to share your story, I think that's fine, too. So hopefully that answers your question. I think I got a little sidetracked.
David: Yeah, no, I mean, I think like you said, or what a common feeling over this conversation is, it's hard to talk about we don't know how to talk about it and we're trying to help create the spaces to talk about it. I mean I know people that are extremely private and whether it’s these conversations or other hard conversations they by not talking can feel unengaged when in fact they are the most engaged in the conversation. They are just internally processing everything, right?
So yeah I mean I think this is such a great topic to talk about in terms of this hard space. And, it becomes very personal very quickly. So, I think for our audience I’m sure that we’ve learned how to maybe ask questions that are to hold the space for awkward a little bit better. If we’re going through infertility now we have a resource. But where can we find more of your work for our own personal resource as well as to be able to pass it on to the people that we don’t know? Maybe it's easier for me to say, “I don’t know what you’re going through but here’s Ali’s work.”
Ali: Yeah. Well, thank you so much guys for having me. I am really honored to talk to both of you. This has been awesome. So, thank you first of all. But yes if anybody wants to connect to me I’m super accessible. You can go to my Instagram with is Infertile AF stories. You can also check out the podcast which is like on all the platforms. You can follow Fertility Rally also on Instagram @ Fertility Rally or you can go to FertilityRally.com. You know we have stuff for everybody. You don’t have to be a member to enjoy the resources and the blogs and the Q&As with experts and videos and things like that.
So, you know if you are just looking to connect DM me, I will answer you. It might take a minute but I will answer you. Or I can put you in touch with somebody that is going through what you are going through. So, I never thought this would become like the work that I’m so passionate about. I never, never would have predicted this. But I am so passionate and I really want to keep connecting with people and making them feel less alone and know that whatever you’re going through there is someone else going through it too. So, let’s all band together and lift each other up.
Mary: Yeah. Isn’t that the odd magic that we go through that it can end up bringing us to what we’re supposed to be doing? So, this episode is sort of right in the middle of National Infertility Week. Can you speak to what that is and if there is anything that our listeners can engage in with as well?
Ali: Sure. Yeah, thank you. So, National Infertility Week happens once a year. It was stated by Resolve. Org which you know they kind of invented it and they are a resource and a community. And they have advocacy events. You can go to Resolve.org and find out a lot more about their organization and how you can get involved. They do things like helping people lobby to their HR department to get coverage at work for infertility treatments. We actually had a member the other day who emailed us and was like, “I did what we learned at that event you guys held and I got coverage for thousands of people at my job.” And we were like, yeah. So self-advocacy on both a personal level and also a legislative level. But National Infertility Awareness Week. There are tons of events all week. It’s mostly on social media. But there are lots of campaigns. The NIW official color is orange so there’s a day where everybody wears orange and does hashtags. And again it’s just a place where you can connect with other people and find your crew basically.
Mary: Cool. Yeah. Yeah, and we’re excited because not only have we gotten to share your story and the work that you’re doing but also Nathalie last week and then in a couple of weeks another connection with you guys to talk about how infertility led them to adoption quite frankly. So, we’re really, I can speak for David and I both that we’re really honored to share multiple perspectives around this because it’s not a one and done. Nothing is the same. And, I think that’s the beauty of the podcast that you have too that it really provides that spectrum. So thank you for being here Ali and for sharing so honestly and giving us some insight into some of these tricky nuances.
Ali: For sure. And I will say one more thing is that we always say, our tagline for Fertility Rally is the worst club, best members. Because nobody wants to be in this club. But the people that we’ve connected with like Nathalie who you just said and so many others, everybody is like what can I do? How can I help? How can we help each other? I think it’s just so powerful. So, there are just some pretty awesome people in this space even though nobody wanted to be here.
Mary: Yeah, yeah. Nathalie said she fell into infertility and I think that that sort of maybe you just fall into it. And so everyone is just making the best of a tricky and very painful situation.
Ali: Yes. Thank you, guys.
Mary: Thanks, Ali.
Ali: Thanks for having me.
Mary: Be well.
