Ep 38 - Infertility - A Raw, Honest and Hopeful Conversation with Nathalie Carpenter
Many people dream of having kids and raising a family. Imagine the pain and shock when all of a sudden, that story becomes very difficult or simply impossible. Grief surrounds, and as with many painful experiences, those surrounding us often don't know what to say when they are trying to offer support.
***This is a sensitive topic*** especially if you or someone you love struggles with infertility. Today's story ends with the birth of a child, but we and today's guest Nathalie acknowledge not all stories end in the same way. We hope that as Nathalie shares with us her experiences of processing her and her husband's emotions through their path of infertility, you can find a community of support or be a community of support for someone going through this painful journey.
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TRANSCRIPT:
David: We're continuing to see lots of new listeners each and every week join in on the Third Place Podcast. So if you're new to this show, we strive to seek out what are normally uncomfortable conversations and invite them into a comfortable space. In today's episode, we invite mediator-arbitrator and attorney Erin Gleason Alvarez into the third-place around the topic of negotiation. She has been teaching negotiation theory and practice for over 15 years and is the CEO of Take Charge Negotiations, which she founded to transform negotiation into a dialogue grounded in mindfulness and positivity. Her online membership community, Compass by Take Charge Negotiations, provides members with the space to learn, practice, and share their journey towards more collaborative and rewarding negotiation experiences and outcomes. So let's welcome Erin to the Third Place Podcast.
[Intro-music]
Mary: We welcome you to explore the third place with us.
David: It is an invitation to the gray space, a space where deeper connections are fostered through challenging, empowering, and engaging dialogue.
Mary: You will walk away with a deeper understanding of self, equipped to engage with others in life's complex conversations.
David: Thank you for listening.
Mary: We invite you in to the third place.
Mary: Well, this week's guest we have Erin and we met over a platform that I've referred to here in the past, but it's the Hey Mama Community. One really cool thing was shouted out there how Erin, was featured in a group interview. And it was on a topic that, you know, we've been on the hunt for awkward conversations, right? And there's so many of them, it's not really a hunt it’s sort of all-around in every corner. But the topic of negotiation is definitely an uncomfortable one. And oftentimes, you know, it surfaces so much anxiety, and finding your work, Erin with negotiation and negotiation theory and mindfulness and negotiation really felt like such a breath of fresh air. So I want to dive into the place of what is the work that you do, and why is it important to you?
Erin: Well, thank you so much, Mary, and thank you for having me here. So, I am a lawyer by background and training. I have been for about 20 years now. Most of the work that I do now is actually as a mediator and an arbitrator. And then I also have a negotiation teaching and consulting group that I founded a few years ago. And that was sort of the thing that was featured in the recent group article, which was really lovely. You know, my focus, is really I'm trying to deconstruct all of those negative emotions that you were referring to that often come up for people in the context of negotiation.
You know, you say that word and almost automatically, people think of these big complex and frustration and anger and argument. Whereas, you know, I feel really strongly that this is something that we are doing, you know, constantly every day, and it's a much more sort of normalized thing than we're kind of taught to believe. And so it while it seems inaccessible, and like something that's maybe hard, what I try to do is to challenge people to sort of take a step back, and be mindful of all of the sort of conversations and dialogues that they're already having. And to see that those are actually negotiations. And, you're doing them pretty well. And so, those skills are transferable over to these other scenarios that people tend to associate with being a little bit more scary.
David: Yeah. And for me, that was one of the things and maybe you can expand on that that really caught me by surprise with the article was just this idea that we're negotiating all day all the time. I mean, you referred to like we're negotiating with our pets, and I had to pause to be like, okay, yeah, my dog is always trying to get me to give her more food. But I had to stop and think about that, like, how else are all these like, everyday negotiations showing up in people's lives? Because that was an interesting way for me to be thinking about it or a new way.
Erin: Yeah. And you this is my lens. And so I can see almost anything, right, in the context of negotiation. So I'm negotiating with myself at the beginning of every single day because there are all of these choices as to, you know, what I can do what I should do, and, you know, sort of what's the healthiest decision for me? You know, I live with my family. We have all been in this lockdown for almost a year now, right? So, you know, we're living all together. And that is, I think, the biggest negotiation that I have ever had to experience.
Mary: Amen.
Erin: Right. Yeah. Because it never ends.
Mary: And so, you know, that kind of makes me wonder, like, what's the difference between negotiating and just decision making more choosing a choice? Or are they sort of one and the same?
Erin: Oh, yeah. So the way that I teach negotiation, and specifically how to think about mindfulness in the context of negotiation is by sort of breaking it down into four different pillars, which are, for me negotiation needs to involve mindfulness, elements of positivity theory, decision making, and then problem-solving. And those are really the key, you know, features of those kinds of discussions that I try to hone in on. Because I think that, you know, to your point, a negotiation, you know, it's a problem-solving exercise, right? And, in that exercise, there are a number of decisions that have to be made. And to the extent that you can approach those kinds of conversations and decisions, from a place of, you know, looking at it as an opportunity, something that's going to make you better afterwards. That's a better way, I think to approach these discussions. It takes the sort of the heavy vibration emotions and those low vibration emotions out of the picture.
David: What were those four steps?
Erin: So I think of it is sort of mindfulness, and then positivity, and decision making and problem-solving. And those are the way I teach my classes. So every month we focus in on either, you know, some element of mindfulness or decision making, and then just kind of pull it apart.
Mary: Right.
David: Got it. Yeah, that's really helpful.
Mary: I love how you said, yeah, there's like low vibration that it sort of, is an experience that is based in something that is kind of disempowering is what I think of is this, like, we have these constructs around these ideas or these words. And that's sort of the low vibrational approach and that a higher vibrational approach would be more of this element of mindfulness to it. What I think of, and I'm sure many people do, but especially being a woman. It's always this conversation of and I think you pointed this out to that negotiation is really limited to this idea of negotiating your worth within maybe a monetary way as a company or to try to negotiate a better salary or better benefits or better package. And, I'm wondering, because I think that there's a little bit of this unfounded truth, that negotiation is harder for women, can you speak to debunking that a bit?
Erin: For hours.
Mary: Well, we got time. We got time.
Erin: So, yeah, so this is why, you know, I found it Take Charge Negotiations a couple of years ago, you know, for years, I had been the, you know, behind the scenes negotiation consultant for my girlfriends and for, you know, the female members of my family and colleagues and so on. And there are these sort of common themes that come out of those conversations, which are, you know, I don't want to look pushy. I don't want to ruin the relationship. I don't want to overstep. I don't want to cause a problem. You know, I'm not a good negotiator. I don't really want to do this. It can go on and on.
And I just, you know, was thinking about it, thinking about it, and I started to do research. And when you do research, and I actually have, you know, a Google search up in front of me, as I'm speaking right now. So just out of curiosity, when you run a search about negotiation and women, you know what comes up? And it's so depressing, right? So you know, research suggests 20% of women never negotiate. What are the challenges that face negotiation challenges facing negotiation? Women don't negotiate, the gender gap, you know, it goes on and on. And all the advice, not all of it, but a lot of the advice out there for us centers on you're not doing it right, or you're not doing it or you know, you asked the wrong person or you speak in the wrong tone of voice and it goes on and on and on.
Whereas, you know, getting back to our point earlier, you know, we're doing this all the time, we're doing it successfully, and especially as women, you know? I mean, I think that, for us, for many of us, negotiation, is a survival skill. And you just aren't thinking of it. You know, you don't think about breathing, and you're not thinking about negotiating in your daily life. But when you start doing that, and you see that you're doing it, it's really empowering.
David: Yeah, and I would think that like many skills, it's like, where to begin to practice and then, therefore, gain the confidence and the skill set. I mean, honestly, a lot of my work in coffee is around women empowerment. And so this is a conversation that I am very much passionate about. But I also feel like I tend to be maybe more in that line of, I'd rather not negotiate I wish the world would just revolve on handshakes and trust and that we all have our best interests in mind. And I have been burned, often. So I feel like there are some things that I could learn as a man in terms of better negotiation. But, you know, a big part of what I heard, though, is like, building confidence, doing it well, a little bit at a time and, and really tapping into that skill set are growing that skill set like a muscle.
Erin: Yeah. So last month, I've created this sort of community, right, where every month, we talk about these different things. And last month, we were talking about listening, and how listening is a really important part of any negotiation, right? And oftentimes, it's really hard to listen, you know, especially in these conversations, where it's charged, and you're hearing things that are either, you know, you didn't know, before that sort of throw you off path, or maybe it's insulting, or, you know, you're trying to sort of plan out what you're going to say next, instead of actually listening.
So, we went through a series of challenges over the course of the month, thinking about what is this listening thing really means, and how it's actually real practice and mindfulness. And the best way to start, David, to your point is to start small and to start with people you trust. And so, what I did for myself was, you know, I think that I can get easily distracted. And so over the course of that month, I promised myself that whenever my child was speaking to me, I would drop everything else I was doing, I would look him in the eye, and I would pay attention to everything he said to me, and try to notice the difference in those conversations that we had. And I remembered more. And there was a better connection. And it was just, you know, and I talk about and teach this stuff all the time. But you know, just these little everyday things can make such a huge difference.
Mary: Yeah, two things that I'm thinking about is, first that I like how you dispelled that it's not about even, I think practicing negotiation so much as changing our awareness around how often we are already. And that, through that, then suddenly, the muscle already exists, and you're just shedding light on it. And I think that that's sort of a confidence gaining tool and in and of itself. And, the second thing I'm reading this book right now because I have a toddler he's three and you know, all the positive parenting books talk about the struggle of negotiation in this time, right? It's constant negotiation.
And that one of the main things of this book, it's called ‘No Drama Discipline’, it's this, it's the whole brain approach to, to discipline was saying that it's about first connecting, and it's exactly what you're speaking to now that there's less drama in the exchange. There’s more connectedness, and it's only as simple as slowing down and being present. And that through that I've found, you know, my hopes for a productive or a positive end result, like what negotiation is, is like nine times out of 10 instead of two out of 10. So, I love how you brought that up in the parenting position because I know it very well, currently.
Erin: Oh my God, there are so many lessons. You know, that kid is just such an all-star negotiator. Always has been. You know, I remember once we were going to a doctor's appointment, and he wanted to bring three toys with him and I said, “No. You know, pick one toy and you can bring that.” He says, “No mummy, I want to bring three toys. I said, “No. And he says, “How about one toy and one book?” He knows I'm not going to say no to one book?
David: Oh, man, this is just bringing up so much for me.
Mary: Me too. This is my son.
David: I have a three-year-old also and I'm just like, every night is a big negotiation.
Mary: Yeah, it’s like suddenly they realize they can and they're like, you're like, “Okay, five minutes until this,” and they're like, “Seven.” You're like, “Okay.”
Erin: It only gets worse.
Mary: Yeah. Yeah. It does? Oh, goodness, David, we're in. We're in for it.
David: Oh no. Literally, going to bed last night was, you know, okay, you win this negotiation let's just get you to bed and tomorrow, we'll start all over. I just need a good reset right now.
Erin: Yeah. Which is okay.
Mary: It is totally okay. And, you know, with some of this in mind, so I kind of want to also hear, like, you know, from your professional and personal perspective, like, do you have any stories of negotiation going wrong, and that obviously inspiring this, this path that you've gone down? And, how that can inspire our listeners to do the mindfulness work to prevent that?
Erin: Yeah, oh, God, you know, having been a lawyer for all this time and for the vast majority of that time, the only woman in the room you know, there are so many stories, right, of these, you know, sort of unfair circumstances, and just experiences that I wish I could just wipe from my memory banks. But you know, obviously, I can't, and there's a lot of lessons that I think I've learned in that time. So, you know, for me, in the early years, when, you know, I was negotiating, as part of my job, I started out as a litigator. You know, I just felt like, I had to be really forceful. Because I wasn't going to get a word in otherwise.
You know, there's, there's this pattern that I've studied, in the manner in which men sort of communicate with one another. And I don't think that it's, you know, this isn't scientific, this is just me sitting in a million boardrooms over all these years. It's just a sort of, like, a fluid way of speaking with one another where one stops talking, and then the next one just picks up and no one seems to take a breath in between their words. Whereas I need to breathe and sort of think for a minute. And, you know, it's just, there are so many stories where I could not figure out, what was the best way for me to communicate. You know, am I supposed to adapt according to the way that they do it, which certainly doesn't work. Or find, you know, my own way. And, you know, ultimately, that's what I've done. And luckily, was, able to sort of find that path.
But the negotiation that you know most of mine also now are very, as a mediator or an arbitrator all that is in confidence. So the negotiations that I like to talk about the most are the ones that take place, around the home with the guys where I'm, you know, sometimes winning, oftentimes not. And, the story that I have been tracking over the course of the past couple of months is the decline of the household. So you know, we are not one of those families, who has you done the home edit, and is in happier and tidy place. I do not know, where all this stuff comes from, right? Like, there's just books and Legos and like, everything everywhere. If I just could figure out a way for us all to have a nice conversation about how to do this. So I've been obsessed with it, right.
And I've been holed up in my office all day today working and we started this sort of like negotiation and visualization challenge over the course of the past couple of weeks, with my students. And so my challenge is to figure out how to get these guys in line with me. And so I've been sitting down and just sort of thinking about what's the best-case scenario, what does this look like on the other side? You know, what is tidiness and peace and happiness and joy? And wouldn't you know it, I swear, I was in here working and I hear them talking about organizing off in the other room and there they were organizing. It was like a dream come true.
David: Oh wow. That's so cool. Yeah, I mean, I heard you say, you know, being in the boardroom, especially amongst, and being a lawyer and being really over outnumbered dramatically from the men to women. You know, I was listening to that hearing about, you know, forcefulness, and I'm trying to put myself in those shoes. And I know and Mary and I were just in a staff meeting and I know that I can come off that way where I'm interrupting, and I'm stepping on people's toes, and I can take over a room. I also feel like when I recognize it, it's almost like I can go back to making sure that the voices that haven't been heard, have a seat at the table. It’s almost like, I've learned how to become forceful in those situations now to a point where I may be overuse it a little bit. But when I am most aware or most mindful, my forcefulness will make sure that the quiet voices in the room have their chance to speak too. So I think my question is, like, how do I be aware that the negotiation is the best tool so that all the voices are best represented and it's helpful? So, you know, as a more forceful person, what are the tools that I need to be aware or the cues that I need be aware of to create the space so others have that voice?
Erin: First, I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with being forceful. And I think that you know, there's sort of a lot of emotion set or you know, different sort of stylistic approaches and whatever sort of a person use is fine. You know, my complaint was sort of if I'm being penalized, right, for being forceful, then that's not fair, right? If other people can be forceful and are rewarded for it and then, you know, if I am forceful, well, then I'm too aggressive you know, that's not right.
Mary: Yeah, I can relate with that, too. And I mean, it's like you said, it's not bad to be forceful, I think forceful is like the sort of in bed with confidence, right? You're like, you know, I have something to say, and I'm ready to say it. And, that can still though be an overwhelming feeling for those that maybe don't come to the table with that innate confidence and innate knowing and a clarity, especially when they're feeling charged. And when their nervous system could be a little bit out of whack because they know that they're coming to the table to have a conversation around a topic like negotiation, right?
And so, you know, on the flip side, like for those that don't have that forcefulness or don't have that confidence, what I hear you saying is that you can practice gaining that know-how, by practicing those tools of mindfulness by checking in through listening. And I think that that's probably the great antidote to forcefulness is like even you, David is, okay, this is my opportunity to sort of tune in and listen. And what other sorts of things could the non-forceful person do to still represent their side of the spectrum and thought in that negotiation dance?
Erin: I think you need to be really clear on what the purpose of the discussion is, you know? And we talked a little bit, I think, in the beginning about, you know, this concept of sort of, you know, what is negotiation theory, right? And to me, negotiation has typically five different phases that are involved in it. So the first is the planning phase. And this is the part that I think people often forget about. But if negotiation is something that makes you uncomfortable, you don't feel forceful, when you're going into those kinds of conversations, then doing really good homework in advance of that conversation is beneficial for a number of reasons.
First, it helps you to understand what you're actually working towards, and why. Secondly, you should spend time also considering, you know, where the other people in the room are coming from, you know, what is their perspective? How are they going to feel about the things that are important to you, right? And then it's also you know, based on what you know, what steps can you take, what are the talking points that are most important for you to get across. And write those down because it tends to stick with you a little bit better if you do that. And then it's also sort of just making sure that before you enter into any of these conversations, you sort of let go of whatever has happened in the past.
I think people sort of drag around these bad negotiation experiences, and it stays with them. And, you know, I think it's just another stepping stone in the process. I've had, you know, God knows my fair share of absolutely horrible conversations. But you know, that sort of part of it. And when you get into those discussions, it's knowing that you know, there's going to be a point probably, in this dialogue, where, you know, we don't agree. But you have to sort of make a commitment beforehand that you're going to stick to it. Because you've already outlined for yourself, you know, what's important, this is what I'm working for. This is why. And so then when you get to those points in the conversation that are hard that seemed like you can't work through, you know, you stick to it. It’s not easy.
David: Well, this is all so good. I have three boards and staff meetings that I want to invite you into. Okay. And you were saying, I loved what you said about the fourth steps to like the mindfulness positivity, and that mindfulness being this active listening was really a key component to implementing that phase. What’s like a small thing that we can approach in terms of that positivity?
Erin: So what I'm focusing on now is visualization as sort of a positive, and this ties into the whole planning that we were just talking about. So, you know, thinking about the best possible scenario and having that as you know, sort of touchstone for the conversation. So, the way that I suggest that people sort of connect visualization, and negotiation is in a couple of different ways. And it sort of depends on maybe where you're least comfortable, right? So if the part that you're most nervous about is the actual conversation, then in advance of that conversation, you want to spend a decent amount of time, like, you know, whatever, five or 10 minutes every day, visualizing the best way that conversation could possibly go. You know, like, what do you want to say? How do you want to be seen? How do you want to be heard? How do you want the other people in the room to react to you? You know, what does that really look like? All the details that could possibly come into your mind about that discussion?
Or maybe you're worried about the outcome, right? You don't know what's going to happen afterward. If it's a negotiation with your business partner, or if it's a negotiation with you know, another company or with your partner, or you know, your boss, then you think of what happens after the negotiation, right? What do I take away? How do I feel? You know, how is this going to make me better? What do I do? What is the thing? How do I celebrate this win afterward? So really, just instead of worrying right about these things, envisioning the best possible outcomes, and then spending time, you know, every day, thinking goes through in your mind. That’s what I did with my cleaning crew. And they already started cleaning.
David: Yeah. I love that.
Mary: I love that. Part of me was like, so a few things come up but one of them being that I do this practice. And we talked about this when we talked recently about curiosity, and like having conversations with people that have a completely different perspectives to you, and that you have to be able to sort of play out the worst-case scenario. And so, when I'm thinking about the opposite, that in manifesting what you hope for, and an antidote to worry is actually thinking, feeling into and envisioning the best-case scenario, and really allocating some dedicated and intentional time every day to do that, and that that will set you up for success. Kind of like how they always say like, you know, your mantra should not say, “I will not eat junk food today.” Instead, you say, “I will choose healthy foods,” right? That positive twist.
But I'm also feeling like, that is when a negotiation is anticipated like there's like a blessing of time on your side. And, I've been in so many work situations in the past where I was thrown into a very big, you know, talk that was charged without having any preparation time, any know-how. And, I'm just cognizant of how easily that can go wrong. And how of course that's definitely on leadership at that point. But, you know, what about in those situations where there is not the blessing of preparation and of the planning phase like you said?
Erin: Yeah, I think that it's a couple of things. The first is gathering information on the spot, right? So sort of educating yourself and listening to what is going on. And then I think, you know, taking space in those conversations is, okay. People are really uncomfortable with silence in any conversation, but particularly in a charged conversation, whereas I think it can be one of the greatest gifts that you can possibly give to one of these discussions. And so to the extent that you find yourself, you know, without the ability to prepare in advance, but in a discussion, which is sort of heated, you have to sort of be able to recognize that, first of all, to take a step back, and then, you know, sort of listen to what's going on. And when the spotlight gets put on you if it does, you know, it’s okay, for you to hit the pause button and think before you speak, right? It's okay to sort of take breaks in these kinds of discussions to the extent that you can. And often you can, I think people are often scared to ask for it.
You know, the oldest and most renowned negotiation books ever written, advise that one of the best strategies for getting through just these types of roadblocks is to take a break, you know, and recollect yourself, and then you have a moment to sort of step back from the issue and recognize, you know, whatever is coming up for you, and then go back in, you know, sort of refreshed.
David: Yeah. And I think like the idea of thinking before you speak, and even setting that as, whether that's in real-time, right away, or if that can be a habit that you've learned to, you know, with a person that you would negotiate out with on a regular basis, it's really a version of setting that healthy boundary. And it also feels like, that is one of the key components about active listening, kind of going back to that mindfulness. Like, to truly be actively listening means that you're not constantly thinking about what you might say next. And therefore, if you're going to practice active listening, the thinking before your speaking, space, almost has to be assumed as well, so that you can truly listen, them give pause, then be able to say something. And I think that that feels like a pretty hard habit to implement, because it's so countercultural, but at the same time, something that's really important.
Erin: I think that you know, for me, the connection between mindfulness and negotiation sort of came about, because, you know, I don't tend to have sort of feelings of like nervousness or anxiety, usually, when it comes to negotiations, these types of conversations. However, I have a hot temper. And, it's not healthy. You know, it just it isn't. And so, at some point, maybe about five or so years ago, I started meditating. And really just taking a step back and reevaluating just everything. And, it was at that point, that mindfulness came in for me. But then as I continued, sort of talking, and teaching and negotiation space, it just became obvious to me sort of that it was really important to make the connection between these two worlds. And at first, really, you know, for myself, because it can be really frustrating for me, you know, and it can be sort of maddening sometimes. And those kinds of emotions really don't serve anybody in the end.
David: Right. So I was on in a conversation just like a week ago about, you know, this idea of active listening or even just the creating the space. Because I definitely can be emotional. And I mean, I don't know if hot temper is the right word, but I… Well, maybe it is. You know, I can just really get charged right away. And so this, this idea of, okay, like, I hear you, I acknowledge it, I need a 30-minute break, and I'll come back, you know? And that gives me the space to sort out my thoughts, as well as, you know, in that moment, I can ask permission for the room of, you know, meaning to come back or especially, you know, if it's one on one. And it still might not be enough but then after 30 minutes it just sets the expectations like, hey, let me get 30 minutes, I'm going to go think about something completely different and just let my subconscious work through this out. But even at that moment, if I'm still not ready 30 minutes later to ask for another 30 minutes or to ask for another hour, you know, to still go back to the table after that timeframe, just so you're constantly communicating. I thought that that was a really great tool that is one that I could implement.
Mary: You know, I'm thinking about how one of the successes I've had… Well, to give a little bit of background, my, my dad used to tell me, he's like, you should be a lawyer because I always was preparing these. ..This is so bizarre, but I'm going to share this with the world. I used to prepare these proposals when I was like five to 12 to ask my dad if I could have my best friends stay that night, and it would provide all the pros and cons. I vividly remember it because he was on the main floor and we would sometimes be above the bedroom and I'd be like, and we won't stomp past this hour like those details. And, the reason why I didn't go down the path that you did was because he told me that I would have to read or research a lot. And I was like, “No, thank you.”
But long story short. I think that’s something that's innate within myself, but I think that we often forget as a race or as a society is that ultimately, we're all sort of like coming from the same place or with the same goal in mind regardless and that it's that we want to achieve a sense of peace or happiness. And, that negotiation is sort of just like a stepping stone to finding some means to feeling that positive sensation. But it's a group effort. And I've had success in a sort of leaning into that truth and acknowledging that outwardly. Is there sort of like a starting point that these conversations can be had by declaring that we have the same goal in mind like that? Some connecting statements that are helpful to setting people off from a positive place?
Erin: Yeah, I think it's called anchoring. And it's a really wonderful way to start off a negotiation, I think and to set the tone for one that is geared towards collaboration. You know, you can sort of anchor any conversation in lots of different ways, right? But you can choose to anchor the negotiation dialogue, from a positive perspective, perhaps setting ground rules for the discussion, outlining, you know, what the parameters of the discussion should be, you know, what's up for negotiation and what isn't? And, you know, to the extent that that makes you feel more empowered and more comfortable, for the remainder of the discussion. And that's, you know, I think, another great way to do that. So, yeah, I 100% agree with you.
David: Cool. I mean, I think that that's really helpful. I'm walking away with active listening, anchoring, setting these ground rules and parameters, you know, and even that commitment beforehand, that, well which is really that anchoring, right, like collectively making this commitment of, you know, here's this plan, where we're on the same page, or we have the same goals, or maybe you don't. But, you know, clarifying what those goals are is just all really great, small pieces that we can all do. I feel empowered to now go home and negotiate with my three-year-old and my dog. But are there any more like little nuggets that I missed maybe or that you can add to those?
Erin: I think that if the word negotiation is one of those that comes up for you as something that is, you know, sort of unnerving or not particularly comfortable then start with the small stuff. You know, start listening in those spaces and with the people who you trust and you love and see how those dialogues are going in what you can learn about the negotiation style and skills you already have. And then, that'll help you to grow them even more.
David: Yeah. I mean I do think that this is so important when we hinted at this, like when we talk about the work of gender gap and, and closing that gap, learning how to become skilled negotiators it's a part of that conversation for sure. So, I think that this idea is really helpful and very important for so many of our society's goals and objectives of making the world a more equitable place. So thank you for that.
Erin: Thank you.
Mary: Yeah. And I mean, I'm kind of taking away that it's like not even learning that we're skilled negotiators. But just acknowledging that we're doing it every day, every minute, probably 10 times an hour, whether it's with ourselves or someone else. And so I appreciate that shift of awareness and really want to make sure that our listeners can dial into more of the work that you do. So. can you share with them where they can find more of your work?
Erin: Yep. It's that TakeChargeNegotiations.com. And there is information about programs that I run on a monthly basis, which are free. And then we also have the link to our membership community on the Take Charge website as well.
Mary: Sweet. This is so exciting. Thank you so much.
David: Very cool.
Mary: Yeah, you're doing such great work, and how happenstance to have found you? Thank you so much.
Erin: Thank you. Thank you both. This was so much fun.
Mary: Be well.
David: The Third Place Podcast is produced by Podcast Publishing House. If you like what you’re hearing follow us and subscribe at all of your favorite platforms, Apple, Spotify. Also, check out the episodes on our website, ThirdPlacePodcast.com for additional resources and transcriptions of our episodes. The Third Place is all about continuing the conversation. So, make sure you follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Third Place Podcast. There you can check out our weekly co-hosts Happy Hour on IG TV. And if you like what you’re hearing and want to continue to support our work you can check out our Patreon page at Patreon.com/Third Place Podcast.
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